“Very sophisticated ads can be presented using JavaScript, which is an open standard (ECMAScript). There’s no reason to use Flash for ads apart from convention.”

First of all, Flash (actionscript) is also based entirely on the open ECMA standard. Secondly, your original argument was that Flash enabled ad networks to spy on you with cookies etc. Can they not do the same thing with Javascript?

“(h.264) So while IP is involved, it’s openly licensed under nondiscriminatory terms. Which is nothing like Flash, a proprietary binary alternative to Web standards.”

Huh? You admit h.264 is NOT an open standard, and in the same sentence bash Flash for not being open standard. Both h.264 and Flash are protected under IP law and require some form of paid license to roll out. What’s the difference again, in terms of consumer/vendor benefit? If Flash is an “alternative to web standards” then what is h.264, given its paid licensing scheme?

“The “resource comparison” of Flash and H.264 was wildly flawed. Existing Flash video is not at all optimized for anything.”

Flash utilizes GPU acceleration quite well, and on the OS/browsers where it can properly do so, CPU utilization is the same OR BETTER than HTML5 video. Look, I own dozens of apple products, I’m typing this on my Mac Pro, and I love me some Apple. But some Apple fans are allowing themselves to be blinded to what is really going on here. Apple wants Flash dead (we can argue the reasons separately), and they are artificially creating the conditions under which average users THINK Flash is a resource hog. If Apple is actively preventing Adobe from optimizing Flash for the mac platform, how can you blame Adobe for that?

“Also, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that Apple makes money from App Store titles that Flash would eat into, because Flash hasn’t created any sort of legitimate, significant marketplace of useful software for any other mobile platform (and isn’t used for anything on mobiles outside of a bunch of simplistic games)”

This is a fairly disingenuous argument. OF COURSE there is no established, proven marketplace for mobile Flash apps, it wasn’t until the advent of the iPhone that Flash even made sense as a mobile platform. This argument is akin to saying “before the iPhone there was no proven marketplace for iPhone apps.”
You’re essentially arguing that Apple has no reason to fear Flash as a potential app store competitor because, well, Flash isn’t on the iPhone – good point! So let’s get it on the iPhone, with the option for users to disable it if they choose, and see what happens.
Let’s just get to the meat of the issue. If Flash had been on the iPhone from day one, do you really think there would be no successful, useful, iPhone specific, Flash-based apps? I understand there are complex security issues involved and I would be the first to suggest that all non-native apps to meet the same security requirements that “official” apps do. But having a fully closed system completely under Apple’s control where you pay the vig, learn a proprietary coding language (Cocoa Touch) and develop using proprietary tools is absolutely no different than the “closed binary” that you keep trashing Flash for being. In fact it’s far worse – Actionscript is based on the open ECMA standard, and Adobe does not sit on high like Caesar, deciding which apps using its product are acceptable or useful, preventing the ones that they don’t like from even coming to market. Talk about draconian!

“You spew conspiracy theories about Appel trying to extract profits from App Store titles, but ignore the fact that additional replacement of the Web with Flash/Flex/AIR would make the web subservient to Adobe, a far more incompetent and clueless enterprise than Apple, and at least equally as enraptured with DRM and proprietary control of everything.”

I really don’t know what you mean about making the web subservient to Adobe. I am talking about allowing Flash on the iPhone and iPad. If you support Apple’s closed system for putting content on those devices, it’s laughable to then argue against other closed platforms as though they are going to eat the internet.

As I said in the beginning, I fully respect your opinion and think there’s room for compromise on this issue. Why shouldn’t Apple just enable Flash on these devices and give users the option to disable it? If their core argument is that it’s a resource hog, let the users decide if that’s true and if they are willing to live with that in return for being able to access the entire internet.

this is what i think ………

Yes, serving video on web sites with something standards-based (like HTML5) sounds great. The argument seems to be two fold – we need something open source and more resource-efficient than Flash. But before everyone plows over the anti-Flash cliff, just look at the facts. The only way HTML5 will provide truly open source video is if it relies on the decade-old, ridiculously outdated Ogg Theora codec. This codec is so inefficient that your Macbook will be screaming just as loud when trying to play web videos, they will look awful and the file size of those videos will be far higher. I should also add that its inefficiency makes it a total bust for mobile video. In terms of efficiency gain versus Flash, it solves nothing.

[Video on the Web doesn't have to be Open Source to be based on open standards. Ogg is a fringe left wing pipe dream that doesn't work on mobiles. - Dan]

The other option is h.264, which is every bit as proprietary as Flash, only Apple wins since the Quicktime Player is the primary delivery device for h.264 and always will be. See the connection? Apple wants to replace Flash’s massive dominance in video playback with their own dominance in the form of Quicktime, which will provide zero benefit to users or developers. Nothing will change in terms of the primary complaints mac people have about Flash.

[H.265 is not proprietary like Flash because it is not owned by a commercial entity. It's part of the ISO spec. So while IP is involved, it's openly licensed under nondiscriminatory terms. Which is nothing like Flash, a proprietary binary alternative to Web standards. QuickTime includes an implementation of H.264, but that has no relevance. Anyone can implement H.264, and there are open source implementations (x264). ]

As for general Flash content, ads are the top reason people like you seem to hate Flash. Ultimately you’re just cheering the death of the messenger for no good reason. If Flash goes away (which isn’t going to happen) then those ads will still be there, they’ll just be animated GIFs or something similar. What then, declare war on GIFs and JPGs? The problem is that people can and will use technologies in annoying or less than secure ways. That is the responsibility of content developers, not the providers of the tool set.

[Very sophisticated ads can be presented using JavaScript, which is an open standard (ECMAScript). There's no reason to use Flash for ads apart from convention.]

In terms of resource hogging, several unbiased comparisons I’ve seen show that HTML5 video consumes around the same amount (7%+/-) of resources as Flash on virtually all system/browser configurations, except OSX. You can dislike Flash for this inefficiency, but Adobe claims they don’t have the access they need to optimize Flash for the mac. It is well documented that Microsoft backed Flash in the early days in an attempt to slow the advance of Quicktime, creating a bitter situation between Apple and the Flash product. Additionally, many argue that Apple wants to kill Flash because it could provide a viable alternative to 80% of the apps on the app store, apps that Apple currently makes money from. Flash-based RIAs delivered via browser would open a LOT of doors for a lot of developers, Apple just wouldn’t be able to extract a profit from every transaction or tell developers what types of apps are “worthy.”

[The "resource comparison" of Flash and H.264 was wildly flawed. Existing Flash video is not at all optimized for anything. Poor quality Flash (at the pinnacle of its lifecycle) on YouTube consumes less resources than Google's shoddy beta implementation of H.264, but only when vendors don't optimize for H.264 playback like Apple did in Safari.

There is nothing "well-documented" of Microsoft's propagation of Flash outside of what I've written on the subject. Also, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that Apple makes money from App Store titles that Flash would eat into, because Flash hasn't created any sort of legitimate, significant marketplace of useful software for any other mobile platform (and isn't used for anything on mobiles outside of a bunch of simplistic games) AND Apple doesn't make big money on the App Store; it exists to add value to the iPhone/iPod touch.

You spew conspiracy theories about Appel trying to extract profits from App Store titles, but ignore the fact that additional replacement of the Web with Flash/Flex/AIR would make the web subservient to Adobe, a far more incompetent and clueless enterprise than Apple, and at least equally as enraptured with DRM and proprietary control of everything. So everything you've said is absurd to a nauseating degree.

Isn't it time for you to head back to your Flash console to resume cranking out terrible anti-Web binaries? - Dan]

Best Regards,
Carlos

I would love to see a spec for html5 that had multitouch carefully defined. Maybe we can help do that, since the forum there will accept some input at this time, and it should be a unified js call supported by mobile browsers in a unified way. I think its important, since from what i have learned in using flash cs5 multitouch on my hp touchsmart, it really is a new world of cool that awaits us, and the toolin out there like appcellerator is just as clunky as flash is.

[Heard of MobileMe? How about Google Docs? Saying HTML5 features aren't here yet any you have to use Flash is like Microsoft saying Mac features aren't on PCs yet and so you need to use Windows. - Dan]

Plus, you really don’t have kids because (as other commenters have pointed out) there’s a huge number of kids sites that are done totally in flash and they’re quite appealing. My daughter complains constantly because she can’t get to her sites on the iPhone while we’re away from the house. Maybe eventually since Steve hates Flash so much those sites will migrate to something else, but for now, she’s disappointed in Apple and Steve because of this issue.

[For every moronic Flash game you can dig up, I can give you a very good and much more appealing iPhone app. Again, you seem to be digging through turds to find kernels of corn. I'd suggest looking for your vegetables at a farmer's market or grocery store. - Dan]

So, there are lots of people who are interested in flash that aren’t making a living selling flash or ads. You’ve missed the whole point because you’re not using flash the same way millions of others are who enjoy it.

[I addressed who the existing users of Flash are in the piece - Dan]