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	<title>Comments on: The real patent story behind Apple vs Nokia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/</link>
	<description>Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco</description>
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		<title>By: &#187; Nokia v. Apple 2: Electric Boogaloo Student Intellectual Property Society</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23978</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Nokia v. Apple 2: Electric Boogaloo Student Intellectual Property Society</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23978</guid>
		<description>[...] adroitly covered the issue, noting &#8220;this is not a case of tit-for-tat,&#8221; and that what&#8217;s really at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] adroitly covered the issue, noting &#8220;this is not a case of tit-for-tat,&#8221; and that what&#8217;s really at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kiers</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23291</link>
		<dc:creator>kiers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23291</guid>
		<description>excellent article, and indeed series as well. The financial figures and facts speak for themselves free of any partisanship. Apple has eaten Finland, and they (Nokia) are out of options.

For the record, I have a ($500 at the time!) unlocked Jokia N95-1, purhcased in US. It is a BRICK. I can&#039;t load a simple 4GB SDHC card with MP3s and expect it to last more than a week without data CORRUPTION, and consequent losing all my photos and other stuff on the card as well. Nokia symbian can do NOTHING about it despite latest firmware. Even their authorized repair center will admit to this. Imagine $500 and not even an mp3 tunes! NEVER AGAIN NEVER.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent article, and indeed series as well. The financial figures and facts speak for themselves free of any partisanship. Apple has eaten Finland, and they (Nokia) are out of options.</p>
<p>For the record, I have a ($500 at the time!) unlocked Jokia N95-1, purhcased in US. It is a BRICK. I can&#8217;t load a simple 4GB SDHC card with MP3s and expect it to last more than a week without data CORRUPTION, and consequent losing all my photos and other stuff on the card as well. Nokia symbian can do NOTHING about it despite latest firmware. Even their authorized repair center will admit to this. Imagine $500 and not even an mp3 tunes! NEVER AGAIN NEVER.</p>
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		<title>By: blouis79</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23268</link>
		<dc:creator>blouis79</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23268</guid>
		<description>I understand the ITC is set up to stop imports hurting US businesses. It&#039;s hard to the the ITC defending Nokia over Apple when Apple owns all its IP in USA. (Can&#039;t find any details of the ITC case.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the ITC is set up to stop imports hurting US businesses. It&#8217;s hard to the the ITC defending Nokia over Apple when Apple owns all its IP in USA. (Can&#8217;t find any details of the ITC case.)</p>
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		<title>By: CCS</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23242</link>
		<dc:creator>CCS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23242</guid>
		<description>@Nathan:
&gt;The ITC can make Apples life miserable if they side with Nokia on the complaint. (Like baring sales of any infringing stuff in the US)

I don&#039;t know. All those government folks love their iPhones…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nathan:<br />
&gt;The ITC can make Apples life miserable if they side with Nokia on the complaint. (Like baring sales of any infringing stuff in the US)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know. All those government folks love their iPhones…</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23195</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23195</guid>
		<description>Something you all might be interested in; see the Nokia site for the full press release.  Another shoe has dropped...

&quot;Nokia announced it has today filed a complaint with the United States International Trade Commission (ITC) alleging that Apple infringes Nokia patents in virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers. &quot;  (The release goes to say that this action is not related to the lawsuit)

The ITC can make Apples life miserable if they side with Nokia on the complaint. (Like baring sales of any infringing stuff in the US)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something you all might be interested in; see the Nokia site for the full press release.  Another shoe has dropped&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Nokia announced it has today filed a complaint with the United States International Trade Commission (ITC) alleging that Apple infringes Nokia patents in virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers. &#8221;  (The release goes to say that this action is not related to the lawsuit)</p>
<p>The ITC can make Apples life miserable if they side with Nokia on the complaint. (Like baring sales of any infringing stuff in the US)</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23194</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23194</guid>
		<description>@gctwnl -- I know the iphone technically supports multitasking,  in fact from stuff I&#039;ve read if you jail break your iphone you can get an app to enable multitasking.    And the choice to limit &quot;multitasking&quot; to save battery &amp; to eliminate task switching confusion was their choice, the only point I was trying to make was that nokia 770 which was two years before the iphone and it had allowed multitasking.  Technology wise; Nokia was NOT following the iphone; they were on the scene two years before them and still have a technology lead in several areas with their n900.  

New Disclaimer: my wife just got me a n900 for Christmas, since it matches my ideology --  I want full control over the apps I run (I&#039;ve been using Computers since Apple/Commodore days -- I run what I want to).   I&#039;ve already installed truecrypt, NTFS (windows file system), cifs (windows/samba file sharing), Keepassx (encrypted password db), vnc (linux/mac remote control), rdc (windows remote control).    So now my phone can access my entire media and documents on my home server via file share rather than just a web interface, has encrypted disk support (that all my computers can work with) to keep all important documents private, supports windows files systems, has vnc and rdc to remote control computers.   Fully Multitasking and lasting over a full day of use -- I am very happy with this device.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@gctwnl &#8212; I know the iphone technically supports multitasking,  in fact from stuff I&#8217;ve read if you jail break your iphone you can get an app to enable multitasking.    And the choice to limit &#8220;multitasking&#8221; to save battery &amp; to eliminate task switching confusion was their choice, the only point I was trying to make was that nokia 770 which was two years before the iphone and it had allowed multitasking.  Technology wise; Nokia was NOT following the iphone; they were on the scene two years before them and still have a technology lead in several areas with their n900.  </p>
<p>New Disclaimer: my wife just got me a n900 for Christmas, since it matches my ideology &#8212;  I want full control over the apps I run (I&#8217;ve been using Computers since Apple/Commodore days &#8212; I run what I want to).   I&#8217;ve already installed truecrypt, NTFS (windows file system), cifs (windows/samba file sharing), Keepassx (encrypted password db), vnc (linux/mac remote control), rdc (windows remote control).    So now my phone can access my entire media and documents on my home server via file share rather than just a web interface, has encrypted disk support (that all my computers can work with) to keep all important documents private, supports windows files systems, has vnc and rdc to remote control computers.   Fully Multitasking and lasting over a full day of use &#8212; I am very happy with this device.</p>
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		<title>By: gctwnl</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23190</link>
		<dc:creator>gctwnl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23190</guid>
		<description>@Natahan: The iPhone does have multitasking, the iPhone runs OS X after all and that is based on a fully multitasking kernel. But as far as I know, Apple limits access to multitasking, mainly for battery life and probably also for performance (I&#039;d rather not see swapping on the phone).
 
Apple has made a few explicit design choices because of battery life and performance and one of those is to limit multitasking. So people can complain: the iPhone does not have multitasking (which is technically incorrect), but others could say: they have such an such battery life at such and such a form factor and functionality. You cannot look at these choices separately, they are interrelated.

Still: does anybody know where to find the text of the Nokia suit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Natahan: The iPhone does have multitasking, the iPhone runs OS X after all and that is based on a fully multitasking kernel. But as far as I know, Apple limits access to multitasking, mainly for battery life and probably also for performance (I&#8217;d rather not see swapping on the phone).</p>
<p>Apple has made a few explicit design choices because of battery life and performance and one of those is to limit multitasking. So people can complain: the iPhone does not have multitasking (which is technically incorrect), but others could say: they have such an such battery life at such and such a form factor and functionality. You cannot look at these choices separately, they are interrelated.</p>
<p>Still: does anybody know where to find the text of the Nokia suit?</p>
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		<title>By: airmanchairman</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23111</link>
		<dc:creator>airmanchairman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23111</guid>
		<description>The full description was &quot; not F/RAND&quot;,  i.e. not (F)air, (R)easonable (A)nd (N)on-(D)iscriminatory - this is a common term in patent litigation. It seems to point to the possibility that Nokia was making more than the usual licensing and cross-licensing demands of Apple with regard to their patents.

All will now be revealed in court if a settlement cannot be reached before it gets that far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The full description was &#8221; not F/RAND&#8221;,  i.e. not (F)air, (R)easonable (A)nd (N)on-(D)iscriminatory &#8211; this is a common term in patent litigation. It seems to point to the possibility that Nokia was making more than the usual licensing and cross-licensing demands of Apple with regard to their patents.</p>
<p>All will now be revealed in court if a settlement cannot be reached before it gets that far.</p>
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		<title>By: gctwnl</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23110</link>
		<dc:creator>gctwnl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23110</guid>
		<description>Apple says Nokia&#039;s demands are not fair and reasonable as they are obliged to be. Apple does not say they do not want to pay. 

My guess is that Apple would not argue this unless they had a strong case. 

It definitely looks to me like Nokia tried to muscle in on Apple&#039;s &#039;non-essential&#039; patents. I&#039;d like to read Nokia&#039;s suit somewhere. Is it available?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple says Nokia&#8217;s demands are not fair and reasonable as they are obliged to be. Apple does not say they do not want to pay. </p>
<p>My guess is that Apple would not argue this unless they had a strong case. </p>
<p>It definitely looks to me like Nokia tried to muscle in on Apple&#8217;s &#8216;non-essential&#8217; patents. I&#8217;d like to read Nokia&#8217;s suit somewhere. Is it available?</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/12/11/the-real-patent-story-behind-apple-vs-nokia/comment-page-1/#comment-23109</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3998#comment-23109</guid>
		<description>@MetalboySiso

If Nokia tried to negotiate the same with the same pricing structure as they do with Motorolo, LG, RIM, HTC, etc and Apple decided not to pay licensing then it was Apples fault. 

    If Nokia tried to use unfair licensing (as suggested by Daniel) then it would be Nokia&#039;s fault.  

    We are on the sidelines; guessing.  Assigning blame without knowing the facts is just plain stupid.   Looking at the information presented so far (press releases and lawsuits); it would &quot;appear&quot; to me that Apple is the party at fault.    But again we are on the sidelines; their is no easy way to assign blame with the current information.  

   However, Nokias patents have been tested and are quite strong, and deal with major parts of pretty much all GSM based phones.  Apples have not been tested and based on reading several of them are pretty dang whimpy, and can be worked around fairly easily.  (Remember a patent details a &quot;method&quot; to do something.  If you do the same thing another way; it isn&#039;t covered under the patent).  GSM, WIFI, 3G patents have to be followed for interoperability -- no way for Apple to work around it.  So just based on the patents, Apple is pretty screwed.
Nokia released new firmware for a couple phones and they are done.

Apple would fight to the end if they thought they could win;  if I had a guess based on the information so far presented, Apple will cave and pay an unmentioned settlement, cross license patents, pay licensing and then admit no wrong doing (which we all know what that really means).

Nathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MetalboySiso</p>
<p>If Nokia tried to negotiate the same with the same pricing structure as they do with Motorolo, LG, RIM, HTC, etc and Apple decided not to pay licensing then it was Apples fault. </p>
<p>    If Nokia tried to use unfair licensing (as suggested by Daniel) then it would be Nokia&#8217;s fault.  </p>
<p>    We are on the sidelines; guessing.  Assigning blame without knowing the facts is just plain stupid.   Looking at the information presented so far (press releases and lawsuits); it would &#8220;appear&#8221; to me that Apple is the party at fault.    But again we are on the sidelines; their is no easy way to assign blame with the current information.  </p>
<p>   However, Nokias patents have been tested and are quite strong, and deal with major parts of pretty much all GSM based phones.  Apples have not been tested and based on reading several of them are pretty dang whimpy, and can be worked around fairly easily.  (Remember a patent details a &#8220;method&#8221; to do something.  If you do the same thing another way; it isn&#8217;t covered under the patent).  GSM, WIFI, 3G patents have to be followed for interoperability &#8212; no way for Apple to work around it.  So just based on the patents, Apple is pretty screwed.<br />
Nokia released new firmware for a couple phones and they are done.</p>
<p>Apple would fight to the end if they thought they could win;  if I had a guess based on the information so far presented, Apple will cave and pay an unmentioned settlement, cross license patents, pay licensing and then admit no wrong doing (which we all know what that really means).</p>
<p>Nathan</p>
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