Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco
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John Gruber: “crummy” not to link to the source, unless its me

John Gruber’s Daring Fireball blog got hot over TUAW linking to a partner site (Engadget) rather than the original source of a story, calling out the attribution failure as “crummy.” After drawing attention to the issue, he noted in an update that TUAW had fixed the link to make it “slightly more clear” who the original source was.

However, Gruber doesn’t like to link to my articles, so when he couldn’t resist but draw attention to the original piece I wrote up on Microsoft’s Danger fiasco, he posted a link to what was very obviously a linkjacked version on another site, which itself noted that it was not the original source of the story, stated the original source, but then failed to actually link to the original work.

When contacted to correct the attribution, Gruber refused to update his link.

Isn’t this the guy who assigns a “Jackass of the Week?”

34 comments

1 Gruber Hypocritical About Links : insignificant thoughts { 10.14.09 at 1:13 pm }

[...] Isn’t this the guy who assigns a “Jackass of the Week?” via roughlydrafted.com [...]

2 Ludor { 10.14.09 at 1:14 pm }

Oh, come on! Okay, so you have different approaches to the [tech / OS X quirks / Apple vs. Microsoft / Apple vs. everyone else] discussion, you have different styles of writing and analysis and everything, but us readers just love the living crap out of both of you. So he’s stubborn. You are too. What on earth went wrong between you guys?

3 hblaschka { 10.14.09 at 1:19 pm }

He “grubered” on that one, as your lately fan FSJ would say ;-)

4 enzos { 10.14.09 at 1:22 pm }

Anyone else having problems posting?

5 enzos { 10.14.09 at 1:27 pm }

From http://twitter.com/gruber/status/923389113
” Man, if you think Dilger is nutty, you should read the emails from the people who support him on this App Store thing.
7:30 AM Sep 16th, 2008 from Hahlo
John Gruber ”
Guess that’s us !
Take it you two have been banging heads for a while now, eh?

6 enzos { 10.14.09 at 1:31 pm }

That fixed it .. the forum software must have mistaken something in the previous three attempts for malicious or unsupported code (?) But now Ludor has stolen my thunder!
Cheers

7 danieleran { 10.14.09 at 1:58 pm }

I’m afraid I unintentionally launched his wrath by pointing out that Apple was using ARM in the iPod after Gruber wrote up a piece (at the iPhone launch) saying the iPhone OS X and Mac OS X were not the same thing and that Apple hadn’t used ARM since the Newton.

Since then, Gruber has pounced on anything I have ever written that he could find fault with. This appears to be a common thing amongst Mac writers. The guy who writes RIXstep (?) used to write me fan letters, but then I wrote up some article on OS X that he disagreed with (not even involving him), and ever since he has studiously churned out a series of scathing personal attacks at every opportunity.

Other people who have flipped a nut over my stuff: Ian Betteridge, one of those former Mac mag writers from the era where Microsoft was paying the Mac media to assail Apple. Anyway, he decided that my comparison of Windows and OS X costs was such an outrage that he launched a Glenn Beck style assault that ended up serving as the nucleus of the “we hate Dan” website that Greenpeace set up for me when I outed their quack environmental reports tied to a fundraising campaign.

Then again, I’ve also gotten in trouble for pulling no punches to out false stories at Wired and IDG, one man PR consultancies, shill writers who review stuff they get for free without noting it, and that sort of thing. So I can take it.

The Mac crowd is a bunch of eccentric weirdos. Which is part of the reason why it’s fun to be in it.

8 stefn { 10.14.09 at 2:17 pm }

Keep up the good work, Daniel, unmasking writing that’s half baked. As they say in Zombieland, when it comes to the undead, nut up or shut up.

And if Gruber thinks your modest proposal re the App Store is too much, he will think me one of the weirdos: I believe all publishing is moving to app publishing—minus the tangible forms like print that Amazon will sell.

9 Ludor { 10.14.09 at 2:20 pm }

I guess Gruber made holding a grudge part of his style, kind of. Thank you Daniel, for dilgering* a little on it. Very true about the Mac community. I still haven’t figured out why we behave this way – could be RDF aftershocks.

My apologies, Enzo. Cheers!

* providing extensive and insanely detailed background on anything

10 jdb { 10.14.09 at 2:47 pm }

Many of Dan’s detractors spend an inordinate amount of time pulling out minor technical flaws in his analysis and ignoring the main thrust. Usually these take the form of disputing the meaning of a technical term. As an example, http://twitter.com/bynkii/status/4865451083

11 seth { 10.14.09 at 3:23 pm }

Hi Dan,
I like your work but as you work write for AppleInsider (glass house) I’d refrain from throwing stones.
Best,
Seth

12 peeg { 10.14.09 at 3:31 pm }

I really love both blogs..
so.. girls.. play fair.. I’ll take the Barbies away

px

13 StarkHalo { 10.14.09 at 3:37 pm }

heh, somehow this doesn’t surprise me. Keep up the good work Daniel, you don’t really need him linking to you.

14 gus2000 { 10.14.09 at 3:54 pm }

Personally I think all the Mac bloggers live together in the same commune, singing about love, peace, and harmony. The whole feud thing is just a contrivance to create sensational headlines and link bait. Much like when the rappers have a “feud” to sell records.

I mean, what else are they gonna do to drive up interest? “This just in: The Mac still ‘Just Works’. Film at 11.”

15 purejadekid { 10.14.09 at 5:29 pm }

Not crediting someone for a genuine scoop is really low, as Gruber likes to point out. Even if he refuses to link to you (his choice) he should at least man up and say why (“I don’t like DED but he did break a great story”). Even Moriarty and Holmes would have given each other credit for outsmarting the other.

Maybe it’s different when money (page views) is on the line and there’s nothing technically/legally stopping people from hijacking stories. Personally, I wouldn’t have a thick enough skin to keep at the journalism thing for more than like a week, with so much ego flooding the blogosphere. The pen being mightier, eating one’s words and all that…

16 ChuckO { 10.14.09 at 5:39 pm }

Gruber had something else nasty to say about Dan recently when a bunch of us pointed him to Dan’s article about creator codes. I find his links to other peoples stuff the most interesting part of his site. The stuff he wrote about Creator codes seemed to be from the perspective of a guy with a Mac who hates this inconvenient change. He didn’t seem willing or able to see the big picture on it. He also seems to get his panties in a bunch fairly easily.

17 enzos { 10.14.09 at 7:25 pm }

I’m with Gus! (It was more rumble than thunder anyway, Ludor).
As to Gruber, he can’t be all bad: he worked for BareBones, can be very funny and has had to overcome congenital challenges: no chin and an unfortunate surname (and lumpy underwear, if ChuckO has it right).

18 MLinehan { 10.14.09 at 7:35 pm }

“He also seems to get his panties in a bunch fairly easily”

Darn! I was going to say that. Well, to be precise, I was going to say, “get his knickers in a twist”.

“Many of Dan’s detractors spend an inordinate amount of time pulling out minor technical flaws in his analysis and ignoring the main thrust.”
Good one, jdb. I think that is an extremely common tactic (and indication) of those who think they have (sonorous tones) t h e t r uuuu t h, and who cannot stand any contradictory opinion.

19 MLinehan { 10.14.09 at 7:36 pm }

And Daniel — if I may say — I have become a regular reader only in the last half-year, or so. I am constantly boggled at the extent/depth of your knowledge and the precision of your writing. Thanks.

20 David Chin { 10.14.09 at 8:17 pm }

Keep it up, the both of you. The Mac World would be so much less interesting without your posts.

21 Robert Black { 10.14.09 at 8:28 pm }

This all reminds me of the Pedro Carmichael character’s slurs against Argentines in “Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter,” in its way a story about writing (which in turn was made into the film “Tune in Tomorrow,” with Albanians the new target of Pedro’s ire).

Pedro picks ethnic groups (seemingly at random) to vilify, because he feels that every author needs passion in writing, and nothing drives passion like hate, even if it is put on. As a movie it’s a very funny satire. I can’t help but see parallels here :-) (tho’ that doesn’t mean they actually exist)

22 broadbean { 10.14.09 at 11:17 pm }

I enjoy both of your blogs. Any chance you two could share a beer and make nice? :D

23 Berend Schotanus { 10.15.09 at 12:17 am }

“The Mac crowd is a bunch of eccentric weirdos. Which is part of the reason why it’s fun to be in it.”

That’s nicely said. Keep going!

24 John Muir { 10.15.09 at 4:34 am }

The creepy thing is Gruber will link to Enderle and other real nutjobs when he’s taking them down, so it’s not about only linking to those he agrees with.

Anyway, like some else have said I do actually like reading both you guys. Even Dan “Fake Steve” Lyons on a good day. But I do think there’s something odd about the lengths some will go to forcibly distance themselves from those with which they, in essence, agree.

25 aftershave { 10.15.09 at 4:37 am }

My take on the issue is this. John Gruber likes to maintain a persona where he is known as a fan of the Apple platform yet at the same time has critical things to say about the company and ostensibly maintains some aura of impartiality. It is evident in his lame posts publicizing App Store rejections as if the world has ended. I believe this guarantees a wider audience for his blog. He’s like the John McCain of Apple blogging – talking out of both sides of his mouth.

If he were to let loose and say what’s really on his mind he’d never get linked from Engadgets, and Leo Laportes of the world.

He’s afraid that the articles here are too toxic and harsh on competition which might hurt his credibility with hand-wringing idiots who live their lives according to the golden mean fallacy – that somehow the truth on merits between OSX vs Windows usability is somewhere in the middle.

To illustrate my point, it only took a universal condemnation of Windows Mobile 6.5 by the tech press for Gruber to finally start posting barbed entries how much WiMo blows. He can’t just come out and flatly declare that “WebOS is a bullshit copycat product” because somehow the “elite” tech bloggers deemed the interface to be “so much better than anything else out there.” If he tells the truth it might screw up his standing with his readership.

I personally read RDM because of awesome no-holds barred commentary but I’m aware of the bias, with which I am perfectly comfortable with. Sometimes it feels good to load the blog and see you punch arrogant douchebags in the mouth on the latest manufactured controversy involving minor shortcomings of OSX, iPhone or whatever else becomes the flavor de jour of the shitty tech reporting echosphere.

26 jpmrb { 10.15.09 at 5:15 am }

Ok i get it: you guys don’t like each other—and the rest of us like you both. Hope one of you does not get killed!
And am i the only one having blown a gasket over the typo in the title (unless iTS me instead of IT’S ME). Dan, you’ll write it 50 times for tomorrow, and have it signed by Gruber too.

27 ShabbaRanks { 10.15.09 at 5:22 am }

Screw Grubner…or Gruber…whatever.

Up the Irons!

28 NormM { 10.15.09 at 7:22 am }

Dan — I think you’re well informed and lucid more than any other tech journalist I’ve seen. I also think you occasionally miss something, and your UTI discussion was a bit off (to Gruber’s greatly overstated delight). Gruber’s main point, though, that there is a loss of programmatic functionality, is simply incorrect. An application can still set the default app using AppleScript (tell application “System Events” set default application of file theFilePath to applicationAlias). So I think both of you were a bit off on this one.

29 Ephilei { 10.15.09 at 10:13 am }

@Daniel – Are you going to respond to Gruber’s article? I’ve been waiting.

Daniel may make mistakes, but he’s honest and that’s more important. He’s also biased, but he’s openly biased so I don’t mind. So am I.

30 eddieclay { 10.15.09 at 12:08 pm }

He flipped out in the lowest possible manner on one of the greatest Cocoa/Nextstep indy developers of all time when that developer simply had the foresight and honesty to tell the truth … and has yet to apologize as far as I know. I wish Apple bloggers simply maintained the same level of class that Apple developers/engineers and their products have achieved. Passionate != crude+rude+lude.

http://daringfireball.net/2003/08/i_would_not_feel_so_all_alone

31 TheMacAdvocate { 10.15.09 at 1:26 pm }

I regularly read you both, but always find Daniel to align better with my personal OSview. I also think Daniel’s prolific output is a huge resource to the tech community. If JG wrote more original material, instead of the 80% of his wordcount that bounces to other sources (to his credit, they’re usually worth a read), I’m sure he’d be facing a lot more of the challenges involved in being 100% right, 100% of the time.

As a person who hacks at a Mac blog once or twice a week, it frankly amazes me that anyone can produce as much quality volume as Daniel. Keep up the great work!

32 gus2000 { 10.15.09 at 3:43 pm }

I think Gruber is just mad that Daniel took his cousin Hanz and threw him out a window of the Nakatomi building.

[is that a Prince McClane joke? "Whoa, easy man. I won't hurt you." - Dan]

33 BigDan { 10.16.09 at 3:31 am }

Hi Dan,
I used to be a big fan of Gruber though not anymore. He’s become lazy and rarely writes anything meaty these days. His links are usually interesting but that’s about it.

I think he’s actually quite jealous of the depth and detail of your articles and uses your heavily pro-Apple stance as a stick to beat you with. He thinks that by never being “too close” to Apple that he has become some kind of “authority” figure in the community. he lets the cat out of the bag on his podcast though. On this, ahem, hootfest, he just comes across as a horribly smug cleverdick. More dick than clever actually.

I’ve also noticed recently just how much criticism of Apple and high praising of Microsoft is going on over at MacBreak Weekly. Have they been bought and paid for now too? It certainly seems like it. In his outrageously positive review of the Zune HD, Ihnatko (like the known paid shills) hardly mentioned the app launching adverts or the complete lack of Apps. If this had been Apple he would have slaughtered them for it.

Anyway, keep up the excellent work.

34 MarkyMark { 10.16.09 at 1:16 pm }

I have long assumed that there are many tech bloggers / pundits whose professional lives basically boil down to a lot of light-weight dick-waving, and when they encounter Daniel’s tomes they just go ballistic from the (probably subconscious) realization that they can’t begin to touch his encyclopedic breadth and depth of knowledge of what’s REALLY been going on in various tech areas in recent decades.

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