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	<title>Comments on: Inside Mac OS X Snow Leopard: 64-bits</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/</link>
	<description>Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:03:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: warlock7</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20454</link>
		<dc:creator>warlock7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20454</guid>
		<description>So.  Why has the ability to boot into 64bit kernel mode been disabled on MacBooks?  I have a late 2008 MacBook.  Early unibody, identical specs to the MacBook Pro, aside from the monitor resolution, of the same time period which will boot into 64bit kernel mode.  Is this an accident due to the name of the device being the same as the now white models?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So.  Why has the ability to boot into 64bit kernel mode been disabled on MacBooks?  I have a late 2008 MacBook.  Early unibody, identical specs to the MacBook Pro, aside from the monitor resolution, of the same time period which will boot into 64bit kernel mode.  Is this an accident due to the name of the device being the same as the now white models?</p>
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		<title>By: T. Durden</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20442</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Durden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 20:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20442</guid>
		<description>MatLab, SimuLink and LabView are all available for Mac OS X. Didn&#039;t check the others in the list from robomac, but I&#039;m sure some others are available as well. Being an engineer and mathematician, I can find all I need on the Mac.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MatLab, SimuLink and LabView are all available for Mac OS X. Didn&#8217;t check the others in the list from robomac, but I&#8217;m sure some others are available as well. Being an engineer and mathematician, I can find all I need on the Mac.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnWatkins</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20437</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnWatkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20437</guid>
		<description>correction:
. . . . Even doing a mildly  [complex]  mortgage comparison . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>correction:<br />
. . . . Even doing a mildly  [complex]  mortgage comparison . . .</p>
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		<title>By: JohnWatkins</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20436</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnWatkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20436</guid>
		<description>Robomac,
Like I said, I really have no experience or knowledge of the software you mentioned, but I&#039;m sure you would have to agree it is pretty esoteric stuff. The one package I have heard of is MatLab, and again I know next to nothing about it, but I have heard it compared with Mathematica, which was originally developed on and for the Mac (although Apple was slow on the uptake as I remember.)
Although I&#039;m sure each package has its strengths and weaknesses, is it really a deal-breaker not having MatLab on the Mac when Mathematica is available?

TMH
While iWork is an elegant and better replacement for MS Office in many ways (and probably for most users,) Numbers, as cool as is is in places, is pathetic for any meaningful number crunching. Even doing a mildly mortgage comparison is more than it can handle. Maybe in another version or two, it will become acceptable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robomac,<br />
Like I said, I really have no experience or knowledge of the software you mentioned, but I&#8217;m sure you would have to agree it is pretty esoteric stuff. The one package I have heard of is MatLab, and again I know next to nothing about it, but I have heard it compared with Mathematica, which was originally developed on and for the Mac (although Apple was slow on the uptake as I remember.)<br />
Although I&#8217;m sure each package has its strengths and weaknesses, is it really a deal-breaker not having MatLab on the Mac when Mathematica is available?</p>
<p>TMH<br />
While iWork is an elegant and better replacement for MS Office in many ways (and probably for most users,) Numbers, as cool as is is in places, is pathetic for any meaningful number crunching. Even doing a mildly mortgage comparison is more than it can handle. Maybe in another version or two, it will become acceptable.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnWatkins</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20428</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnWatkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20428</guid>
		<description>TMH, for CAD I like Ashlar&#039;s&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ashlar.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cobalt&lt;/a&gt;, It&#039;s great for sketching or doodling a design, but itss a very full engineering package too -- good enough for Burt Rutan to do his Aeronautical design. And hey Google&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://sketchup.google.com/product/gsup.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SketchUp Pro&lt;/a&gt;is perfect for exhibit design (not engineering, I know.)

Robomac, whether you think Macs &quot;can run enterprise critical Apps&quot; depends on your &quot;enterprise&quot; and what is &quot;critical&quot; to it. Macs are a solid presence in many enterprises especially Unix centric and academic/research-oriented areas (take a look at bioinformatics.)

While I&#039;m sure they are important to you and others, none of the apps you mentioned are important to me. Obviously, the more esoteric the app, the more likely it will be limited to the platform it was originally developed on. There are often quite nice, but little known alternative SW packages available on the Mac. Options on OS X are expanding exponentially and will only continue to do so for a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TMH, for CAD I like Ashlar&#8217;s<a href="http://www.ashlar.com/" rel="nofollow">Cobalt</a>, It&#8217;s great for sketching or doodling a design, but itss a very full engineering package too &#8212; good enough for Burt Rutan to do his Aeronautical design. And hey Google&#8217;s <a href="http://sketchup.google.com/product/gsup.html" rel="nofollow">SketchUp Pro</a>is perfect for exhibit design (not engineering, I know.)</p>
<p>Robomac, whether you think Macs &#8220;can run enterprise critical Apps&#8221; depends on your &#8220;enterprise&#8221; and what is &#8220;critical&#8221; to it. Macs are a solid presence in many enterprises especially Unix centric and academic/research-oriented areas (take a look at bioinformatics.)</p>
<p>While I&#8217;m sure they are important to you and others, none of the apps you mentioned are important to me. Obviously, the more esoteric the app, the more likely it will be limited to the platform it was originally developed on. There are often quite nice, but little known alternative SW packages available on the Mac. Options on OS X are expanding exponentially and will only continue to do so for a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: The Mad Hatter</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20417</link>
		<dc:creator>The Mad Hatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 05:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20417</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I too would like to see more Macs running Ansoft Designer, LINC2, Microwave Office, Matlab, LabVIEW, PADS, and other engineering apps (where I work). It just not gonna happen, man! Replacing MS Office with iWork will not cut it. What critical enterprise apps are you talking about? Oracle? DB2? SAP? What? None of those are OSX and MS Orifice is not a critical app, period.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Replacing Orifice with IWork is probably one of the best moves you can make, Orifice is a total piece of junk. Out of the software that you mentioned, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ni.com/labview/how_to_buy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Labview&lt;/a&gt; is the only one I recognized, and it&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ni.com/mac/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;available on OSX&lt;/a&gt;.
I do a lot of CAD work - while it&#039;s limited &lt;a href=&quot;http://store.apple.com/us/product/TR953LL/A?mco=ODIzMDQ2MQ&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;TurboCAD&lt;/a&gt; offers great value for the cost. If you are a pro and doing a lot of heavy design work (which I&#039;m not, I&#039;m a salesman) &lt;a href=&quot;http://store.apple.com/us/product/TR432LL/A?mco=ODIzMDQxMw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Punch Shark FX&lt;/a&gt; is a killer package.
And that takes care of me. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Now that Win 7 will be a solid release, the enterprise will migrate from XP to 7 and not from XP to Snow Leopard unless somehow Apple managed to include the old &quot;Red Box&quot; idea to run .Net/Win32 apps natively. Keep in mind that many companies code some of their critical apps using Windows tools - aka .Net Visual Studio, Delphi, etc. If finance or production dept runs on custom code based on .Net or Win32 then forget Macs there, period. Unless, of course, Macs run Windows 7 on bare metal not virtualization.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
In my case, that&#039;s not an issue. Because of who and what I am, IT has to put up with what I want, not the other way around. There are advantages to being at the top of the food chain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I too would like to see more Macs running Ansoft Designer, LINC2, Microwave Office, Matlab, LabVIEW, PADS, and other engineering apps (where I work). It just not gonna happen, man! Replacing MS Office with iWork will not cut it. What critical enterprise apps are you talking about? Oracle? DB2? SAP? What? None of those are OSX and MS Orifice is not a critical app, period.</p></blockquote>
<p>Replacing Orifice with IWork is probably one of the best moves you can make, Orifice is a total piece of junk. Out of the software that you mentioned, <a href="http://www.ni.com/labview/how_to_buy.htm" rel="nofollow">Labview</a> is the only one I recognized, and it&#8217;s <a href="http://www.ni.com/mac/" rel="nofollow">available on OSX</a>.<br />
I do a lot of CAD work &#8211; while it&#8217;s limited <a href="http://store.apple.com/us/product/TR953LL/A?mco=ODIzMDQ2MQ" rel="nofollow">TurboCAD</a> offers great value for the cost. If you are a pro and doing a lot of heavy design work (which I&#8217;m not, I&#8217;m a salesman) <a href="http://store.apple.com/us/product/TR432LL/A?mco=ODIzMDQxMw" rel="nofollow">Punch Shark FX</a> is a killer package.<br />
And that takes care of me. </p>
<blockquote><p>Now that Win 7 will be a solid release, the enterprise will migrate from XP to 7 and not from XP to Snow Leopard unless somehow Apple managed to include the old &#8220;Red Box&#8221; idea to run .Net/Win32 apps natively. Keep in mind that many companies code some of their critical apps using Windows tools &#8211; aka .Net Visual Studio, Delphi, etc. If finance or production dept runs on custom code based on .Net or Win32 then forget Macs there, period. Unless, of course, Macs run Windows 7 on bare metal not virtualization.</p></blockquote>
<p>In my case, that&#8217;s not an issue. Because of who and what I am, IT has to put up with what I want, not the other way around. There are advantages to being at the top of the food chain.</p>
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		<title>By: ShabbaRanks</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20411</link>
		<dc:creator>ShabbaRanks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20411</guid>
		<description>I swear this is the last time I like to another site but this particular blog post is hilarious. The comment war after is even better. 
http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/08/31/snow-leopard-great-news-for-windows-7-too.aspx

Honestly the last time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I swear this is the last time I like to another site but this particular blog post is hilarious. The comment war after is even better.<br />
<a href="http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/08/31/snow-leopard-great-news-for-windows-7-too.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/08/31/snow-leopard-great-news-for-windows-7-too.aspx</a></p>
<p>Honestly the last time.</p>
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		<title>By: MacNotables &#187; Blog Archive &#187; MacNotables #938: Bob LeVitus Says Snow Leopard is for Dummies (and The Rest of Us), and It&#8217;s Only Rock and Roll, But&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20410</link>
		<dc:creator>MacNotables &#187; Blog Archive &#187; MacNotables #938: Bob LeVitus Says Snow Leopard is for Dummies (and The Rest of Us), and It&#8217;s Only Rock and Roll, But&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20410</guid>
		<description>[...] Inside Mac OS X Snow Leopard: 64-bits by Daniel Eran Dilger on Roughly Drafted [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Inside Mac OS X Snow Leopard: 64-bits by Daniel Eran Dilger on Roughly Drafted [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tron</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20407</link>
		<dc:creator>tron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 07:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20407</guid>
		<description>Extending from what 12jeremyw.sherman says on how this works, the kernel and programs run in separate address spaces from each other.  They are essentially different programs.  Some operating systems are designed in such a way that user programs &quot;map&quot; into the kernel address space for direct access.  Those operating systems can&#039;t easily mix 32 bit and 64 bit virtual memory tables, but Mac OS X doesn&#039;t use that technique, which is frankly a holdover from an earlier time.

All modern kernels use internal functions to &quot;copy&quot; information from user-mode programs.  These functions can easily be given 64 bit integers.  Only such calls would need to understand the 64 bit virtual memory tables or interact with the 64 bit features of the Intel chips.  Because of this, the holdover of mapping user programs into the kernel address space is a minor optimization at best which can be done away with easily.

The structure of Mach, which underlies Mac OS X, probably also makes this easier, and may also make it easier to mix 32 bit drivers into 64 bit kernels, since Mach has a stronger kernel component separation model than many other Unix kernels, and makes much more use of message passing paradigms than other kernels which make more use of direct function calls.

As for user programs addressing more memory, memory is divided into physical 4K or 8K page frames.  These are manipulated by the kernel and attached to file caches or virtual memory page tables through data structure manipulations.  The kernel does not need to address all of physical memory through virtual addresses in order to do any of this.  In the 70&#039;s it was quite common for operating systems running on 16 bit processors to work with several megabytes of physical memory using these kinds of techniques, so this is nothing new.

It seem a bit annoying, even so, that 32 bit EFI forces use of 32 bit kernels in Mac OS X.  This means that the kernel runs somewhat slower than it could, though this probably doesn&#039;t have too many other effects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extending from what 12jeremyw.sherman says on how this works, the kernel and programs run in separate address spaces from each other.  They are essentially different programs.  Some operating systems are designed in such a way that user programs &#8220;map&#8221; into the kernel address space for direct access.  Those operating systems can&#8217;t easily mix 32 bit and 64 bit virtual memory tables, but Mac OS X doesn&#8217;t use that technique, which is frankly a holdover from an earlier time.</p>
<p>All modern kernels use internal functions to &#8220;copy&#8221; information from user-mode programs.  These functions can easily be given 64 bit integers.  Only such calls would need to understand the 64 bit virtual memory tables or interact with the 64 bit features of the Intel chips.  Because of this, the holdover of mapping user programs into the kernel address space is a minor optimization at best which can be done away with easily.</p>
<p>The structure of Mach, which underlies Mac OS X, probably also makes this easier, and may also make it easier to mix 32 bit drivers into 64 bit kernels, since Mach has a stronger kernel component separation model than many other Unix kernels, and makes much more use of message passing paradigms than other kernels which make more use of direct function calls.</p>
<p>As for user programs addressing more memory, memory is divided into physical 4K or 8K page frames.  These are manipulated by the kernel and attached to file caches or virtual memory page tables through data structure manipulations.  The kernel does not need to address all of physical memory through virtual addresses in order to do any of this.  In the 70&#8217;s it was quite common for operating systems running on 16 bit processors to work with several megabytes of physical memory using these kinds of techniques, so this is nothing new.</p>
<p>It seem a bit annoying, even so, that 32 bit EFI forces use of 32 bit kernels in Mac OS X.  This means that the kernel runs somewhat slower than it could, though this probably doesn&#8217;t have too many other effects.</p>
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		<title>By: robomac</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/09/02/inside-mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bits/comment-page-1/#comment-20406</link>
		<dc:creator>robomac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 04:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3752#comment-20406</guid>
		<description>@madhatter - don&#039;t get me wrong Macs are great. I use them where they are perfect - home, small biz, kids, wife, and even at grandma&#039;s.

I use an old dual G5 Power Mac for multimedia roles and it&#039;s great. Three Mac minis power my TVs and network home server. Macbook for the wife. iMac for the kids.

See a pattern there, &#039;hatter? I love Macs. Have used Macs since the Mac II and Apple IIGS as a junior high geektoid. I know Mac history and thanks to Dan&#039;s weekly history lessons I get flashbacks.

Your opinion about the Mac&#039;s role in the enterprise though is an illusion and a wishful thinking for you and others like our man Dan Eran.

I too would like to see more Macs running Ansoft Designer, LINC2, Microwave Office, Matlab, LabVIEW, PADS, and other engineering apps (where I work). It just not gonna happen, man! Replacing MS Office with iWork will not cut it. What critical enterprise apps are you talking about? Oracle? DB2? SAP? What? None of those are OSX and MS Orifice is not a critical app, period.

Now that Win 7 will be a solid release, the enterprise will migrate from XP to 7 and not from XP to Snow Leopard unless somehow Apple managed to include the old &quot;Red Box&quot; idea to run .Net/Win32 apps natively. Keep in mind that many companies code some of their critical apps using Windows tools - aka .Net Visual Studio, Delphi, etc. If finance or production dept runs on custom code based on .Net or Win32 then forget Macs there, period. Unless, of course, Macs run Windows 7 on bare metal not virtualization.

So, when Daniel proves to me that the enterprise will gravitate to OSX with the release of Snow Leopard and not Windows 7 then I will praise his Mac illusions for I too have my own opinions on tech (no just Mac) matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@madhatter &#8211; don&#8217;t get me wrong Macs are great. I use them where they are perfect &#8211; home, small biz, kids, wife, and even at grandma&#8217;s.</p>
<p>I use an old dual G5 Power Mac for multimedia roles and it&#8217;s great. Three Mac minis power my TVs and network home server. Macbook for the wife. iMac for the kids.</p>
<p>See a pattern there, &#8216;hatter? I love Macs. Have used Macs since the Mac II and Apple IIGS as a junior high geektoid. I know Mac history and thanks to Dan&#8217;s weekly history lessons I get flashbacks.</p>
<p>Your opinion about the Mac&#8217;s role in the enterprise though is an illusion and a wishful thinking for you and others like our man Dan Eran.</p>
<p>I too would like to see more Macs running Ansoft Designer, LINC2, Microwave Office, Matlab, LabVIEW, PADS, and other engineering apps (where I work). It just not gonna happen, man! Replacing MS Office with iWork will not cut it. What critical enterprise apps are you talking about? Oracle? DB2? SAP? What? None of those are OSX and MS Orifice is not a critical app, period.</p>
<p>Now that Win 7 will be a solid release, the enterprise will migrate from XP to 7 and not from XP to Snow Leopard unless somehow Apple managed to include the old &#8220;Red Box&#8221; idea to run .Net/Win32 apps natively. Keep in mind that many companies code some of their critical apps using Windows tools &#8211; aka .Net Visual Studio, Delphi, etc. If finance or production dept runs on custom code based on .Net or Win32 then forget Macs there, period. Unless, of course, Macs run Windows 7 on bare metal not virtualization.</p>
<p>So, when Daniel proves to me that the enterprise will gravitate to OSX with the release of Snow Leopard and not Windows 7 then I will praise his Mac illusions for I too have my own opinions on tech (no just Mac) matters.</p>
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