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	<title>Comments on: The Imagined War between Apple and Palm: Pre vs. iPhone</title>
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	<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/</link>
	<description>Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco</description>
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		<title>By: Why Apple is killing the Pre via iTunes &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-19445</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Apple is killing the Pre via iTunes &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-19445</guid>
		<description>[...] Palm Pre: The Emperor&#8217;s New Phone Why Apple&#8217;s Tim Cook Did Not Threaten Palm Pre The Imagined War between Apple and Palm: Pre vs. iPhone [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Palm Pre: The Emperor&#8217;s New Phone Why Apple&#8217;s Tim Cook Did Not Threaten Palm Pre The Imagined War between Apple and Palm: Pre vs. iPhone [...]</p>
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		<title>By: iTunes 8.2.1 bloqueia ligação ao Palm Pre &#124; Spinning Beachball</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-19255</link>
		<dc:creator>iTunes 8.2.1 bloqueia ligação ao Palm Pre &#124; Spinning Beachball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-19255</guid>
		<description>[...] in Roughly Drafted Magazine [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in Roughly Drafted Magazine [...]</p>
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		<title>By: VeoSotano</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18989</link>
		<dc:creator>VeoSotano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18989</guid>
		<description>@nat
Well, I completeley disagree with you on that one. I don&#039;t want to insist and bore everybody with the same thing, but there are a lot of comments about Palm, the Pre, and Apple, mixed between the politic ones. So... yeah, I still think a separation between politics and tech would be appropiate.

About the Pre and it&#039;s webOS, color me skeptical... I&#039;m a web designer and I know from experience that there are a lot of limits you encounter when you do stuff with HTML, CSS, and Javascript, even when they are outside of a browser. Speed is just one example. There is obviously a reason why widgets are just that.... widgets. Even on Mac OSX dasboard widgets you can throw in Objective-C, which is compiled....

And even if it is a huge success in the US, we&#039;ll see about the international success of the Pre... the iPhone has fared very well so far... that&#039;s a hard act to follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nat<br />
Well, I completeley disagree with you on that one. I don&#8217;t want to insist and bore everybody with the same thing, but there are a lot of comments about Palm, the Pre, and Apple, mixed between the politic ones. So&#8230; yeah, I still think a separation between politics and tech would be appropiate.</p>
<p>About the Pre and it&#8217;s webOS, color me skeptical&#8230; I&#8217;m a web designer and I know from experience that there are a lot of limits you encounter when you do stuff with HTML, CSS, and Javascript, even when they are outside of a browser. Speed is just one example. There is obviously a reason why widgets are just that&#8230;. widgets. Even on Mac OSX dasboard widgets you can throw in Objective-C, which is compiled&#8230;.</p>
<p>And even if it is a huge success in the US, we&#8217;ll see about the international success of the Pre&#8230; the iPhone has fared very well so far&#8230; that&#8217;s a hard act to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: The Mad Hatter</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18979</link>
		<dc:creator>The Mad Hatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18979</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t buy a Pre. It really doesn&#039;t (to me) look that good. But I want Palm to survive. I&#039;ve owned several Palm Pilots, each of which I wore out. They were damned good for what they were designed for. 

And of course Apple needs competition. If Apple doesn&#039;t have any competition, yes, they will get fat and happy, and start doing stupid things, just like Microsoft, which is now panicing and rather than developing good products, &lt;a href=&quot;http://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/trolls-and-linux.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;is sending trolls into all the online forums&lt;/a&gt;.

Look at the car market. You don&#039;t like a GM? Buy a Honda. You don&#039;t like a Honda? Buy a Hyundai. You don&#039;t like a Hyundai, buy a Volkswagen. You don&#039;t like a Volkswagen? Buy a Jaguar. Or Fiat. Or Renault. Or Cherry. Or Ford. Or Toyota. Or Nissan. Or Chrysler. Or Mercedes (Diamler in the rest of the world). Or Porsche. Or BMW. And so on and so on.

There are a lot of other smart phone manufacturers. The problem at present is that none is competing successfully with Apple. What if in the early seventies when Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Subaru were all fighting for the inexpensive car crown in North America, only Honda had showed up? They&#039;d own that portion of the market, and with no competition, they&#039;d get stupid rather quickly.

Any company needs competition. Without competition, there is a tendency to take it easy. So far we aren&#039;t seeing that with Apple. The company has rolled out several IPhone updates so far, with more in the pipeline. But maybe the Pre will be a better device than I think it is, and drive Apple into providing even more value to the consumer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t buy a Pre. It really doesn&#8217;t (to me) look that good. But I want Palm to survive. I&#8217;ve owned several Palm Pilots, each of which I wore out. They were damned good for what they were designed for. </p>
<p>And of course Apple needs competition. If Apple doesn&#8217;t have any competition, yes, they will get fat and happy, and start doing stupid things, just like Microsoft, which is now panicing and rather than developing good products, <a href="http://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/trolls-and-linux.html" rel="nofollow">is sending trolls into all the online forums</a>.</p>
<p>Look at the car market. You don&#8217;t like a GM? Buy a Honda. You don&#8217;t like a Honda? Buy a Hyundai. You don&#8217;t like a Hyundai, buy a Volkswagen. You don&#8217;t like a Volkswagen? Buy a Jaguar. Or Fiat. Or Renault. Or Cherry. Or Ford. Or Toyota. Or Nissan. Or Chrysler. Or Mercedes (Diamler in the rest of the world). Or Porsche. Or BMW. And so on and so on.</p>
<p>There are a lot of other smart phone manufacturers. The problem at present is that none is competing successfully with Apple. What if in the early seventies when Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Subaru were all fighting for the inexpensive car crown in North America, only Honda had showed up? They&#8217;d own that portion of the market, and with no competition, they&#8217;d get stupid rather quickly.</p>
<p>Any company needs competition. Without competition, there is a tendency to take it easy. So far we aren&#8217;t seeing that with Apple. The company has rolled out several IPhone updates so far, with more in the pipeline. But maybe the Pre will be a better device than I think it is, and drive Apple into providing even more value to the consumer.</p>
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		<title>By: adamk359</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18976</link>
		<dc:creator>adamk359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 03:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18976</guid>
		<description>Well the Pre has been released to the public and from what I&#039;ve read so far...there was a lot of interest, but I&#039;m guessing the people who bought them were mostly of the tech-savvy persuasion who either hate the iPhone (cause it&#039;s an Apple product) or hated their iPhone cause it was the one thing dropping their calls (couldn&#039;t have been the AT&amp;T network). The average person probably doesn&#039;t know about the Pre or at least much about it. The iPhone on the other hand had people all up in a frenzy from techies to the average consumer. 

I think unlike what Steve Jobs said about Apple&#039;s  &quot;rivalry&quot; with Microsoft (that in order for Apple to survive that MS must fail - something he disagreed with) that in order for Palm to succeed, Apple must fall flat on it&#039;s ass. As a consumer brand, Apple, even when people complain, still sells. The Anti-Apple techies aren&#039;t enough to sway anyone but themselves.  This latest stand by Palm, though, might be it&#039;s last. Too many people have had too many problems with Palm smartphones in the past, so while the Pre might be their best, most polished smartphone product, Palm still has a long way to go in rebuilding their tarnished reputation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the Pre has been released to the public and from what I&#8217;ve read so far&#8230;there was a lot of interest, but I&#8217;m guessing the people who bought them were mostly of the tech-savvy persuasion who either hate the iPhone (cause it&#8217;s an Apple product) or hated their iPhone cause it was the one thing dropping their calls (couldn&#8217;t have been the AT&amp;T network). The average person probably doesn&#8217;t know about the Pre or at least much about it. The iPhone on the other hand had people all up in a frenzy from techies to the average consumer. </p>
<p>I think unlike what Steve Jobs said about Apple&#8217;s  &#8220;rivalry&#8221; with Microsoft (that in order for Apple to survive that MS must fail &#8211; something he disagreed with) that in order for Palm to succeed, Apple must fall flat on it&#8217;s ass. As a consumer brand, Apple, even when people complain, still sells. The Anti-Apple techies aren&#8217;t enough to sway anyone but themselves.  This latest stand by Palm, though, might be it&#8217;s last. Too many people have had too many problems with Palm smartphones in the past, so while the Pre might be their best, most polished smartphone product, Palm still has a long way to go in rebuilding their tarnished reputation.</p>
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		<title>By: nat</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18974</link>
		<dc:creator>nat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18974</guid>
		<description>@&lt;b&gt;VeoSotano&lt;/b&gt;,

There &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a separation of tech and &quot;politics&quot; on this page.  The dividing line is between the article and the comments section.  Don&#039;t read the comments if you don&#039;t want to hear Daniel&#039;s response to his readers&#039; requests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<b>VeoSotano</b>,</p>
<p>There <i>is</i> a separation of tech and &#8220;politics&#8221; on this page.  The dividing line is between the article and the comments section.  Don&#8217;t read the comments if you don&#8217;t want to hear Daniel&#8217;s response to his readers&#8217; requests.</p>
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		<title>By: VeoSotano</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18969</link>
		<dc:creator>VeoSotano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18969</guid>
		<description>@enzos
While I agree that Dan&#039;s time should be spent on his amazing analisys of tech topics, the political discussion is already monopolizing a great deal of conversation space in a blog post about Apple and Palm.

Having those topics separated would give everybody a better time, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@enzos<br />
While I agree that Dan&#8217;s time should be spent on his amazing analisys of tech topics, the political discussion is already monopolizing a great deal of conversation space in a blog post about Apple and Palm.</p>
<p>Having those topics separated would give everybody a better time, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Pré-posições &#124; Spinning Beachball</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18963</link>
		<dc:creator>Pré-posições &#124; Spinning Beachball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18963</guid>
		<description>[...] não vai permitir que isso continue a acontecer e que é uma medida quase desesperada da Palm. O Daniel Eran Dilger, pelo contrário acha que isto é tudo uma guerra imaginária entre a Apple e a Palm e que a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] não vai permitir que isso continue a acontecer e que é uma medida quase desesperada da Palm. O Daniel Eran Dilger, pelo contrário acha que isto é tudo uma guerra imaginária entre a Apple e a Palm e que a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: iPhone it in</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18942</link>
		<dc:creator>iPhone it in</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18942</guid>
		<description>Daniel said:
&quot;There&#039;s a reason why American Republicans overwhelmingly voted against fighting Hitler in WWII. Republicans secretly love fascism and the concept of the state doing nothing beyond policing their assets and giving them unfettered ability to oppress the masses with state enforced monopoly businesses.&quot;

Wait, what? I was following you so far Daniel, but the history geek in me is gonna have to speak up about this bit.

&lt;em&gt;[ http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&amp;file=article&amp;sid=3811 ]
&lt;/em&gt;

First, there wasn&#039;t any &quot;vote&quot; about fighting in WW2, unless you count the declaration of war by Congress, which was a unanimous vote. It&#039;s true that many conservatives opposed the war in 1939-11/1941 (as did most of the nation), but that was generally as isolationists, not as Nazi-sympathizers.

&lt;em&gt;[Republicans were very much against fighting the Nazis right up until Pearl Harbor made it absurd to remain isolationist. 

However, while you might like to think that the party of &quot;traditional conservative Christian values [which] continually talked of morality while top leaders chased young boys, prostitutes and set up private kickback deals with military contractors&quot; which is both anti-union and supports &quot;living in a totalitarian society ruled by big business interests&quot; has nothing to do with Nazis that they are virtually indistinguishable from politically, you might like to revisit your assumptions. 

America&#039;s industrialists like Ford were openly in love with the Nazis. Eisenhower hired Hitler&#039;s lawyers to run his administration (Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and CIA Director Allen Dulles). ]&lt;/em&gt;

Second, I think it&#039;s a bit of a jump to say &quot;Republicans secretly love fascism.&quot; Fascism is tricky to pin down as an ideology, but generally it&#039;s considered corporatist, militaristic, and authoritarian. Big business types somewhat openly loves the idea of corporatism (those state-enforced monopolies), but the average Republican is probably no more comfortable with authoritarianism and (real) military expansionism than you are. If nothing else, they&#039;d be mad when Hitler took their guns away.  

&lt;em&gt;[Please excuse me while I pick my jaw off the floor. The &quot;average Republican&quot; was not comfortable with authoritarianism while worshiping Bush for 8 years and insisting that if you are &quot;not for us you are against us&quot;? and is against military expansion while flag waving the illegitimate trillion dollar war in Iraq and &quot;supporting&quot; the death of +4000 troops to find WMDs and the missing link between 9/11 and Saddam? Oh please, I only eat things once. ]&lt;/em&gt;

And besides, Mussolini had plenty of love from the liberals back in the day.

&lt;em&gt;[Right, because liberals loved communism AND the communism haters! Sorry, you&#039;ll need to reference more than a right wing jibberish book to support that idea. 

As I said before, there is clearly not just two extreme positions of Right and Left in this country. There can&#039;t and shouldn&#039;t be. There should be two moderate major parties advocating different solutions, and some wilder fringes to offer alternative ideas without having the power to force them on the majority. 

The problem is that particularly since Nixon, the Republican party has stopped being a conservative party and started down the road of extremist, racist (see Nixon&#039;s Souther Strategy) anti-government (See Reagan&#039;s trickle down, Star Wars Ray-Gun-omics) religious zealots lead by talk show hosts and militant separatists advocating terrorism (Palin). This joke needs to be punched into line. ]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel said:<br />
&#8220;There&#8217;s a reason why American Republicans overwhelmingly voted against fighting Hitler in WWII. Republicans secretly love fascism and the concept of the state doing nothing beyond policing their assets and giving them unfettered ability to oppress the masses with state enforced monopoly businesses.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wait, what? I was following you so far Daniel, but the history geek in me is gonna have to speak up about this bit.</p>
<p><em>[ <a href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&#038;file=article&#038;sid=3811" rel="nofollow">http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&#038;file=article&#038;sid=3811</a> ]<br />
</em></p>
<p>First, there wasn&#8217;t any &#8220;vote&#8221; about fighting in WW2, unless you count the declaration of war by Congress, which was a unanimous vote. It&#8217;s true that many conservatives opposed the war in 1939-11/1941 (as did most of the nation), but that was generally as isolationists, not as Nazi-sympathizers.</p>
<p><em>[Republicans were very much against fighting the Nazis right up until Pearl Harbor made it absurd to remain isolationist. </p>
<p>However, while you might like to think that the party of "traditional conservative Christian values [which] continually talked of morality while top leaders chased young boys, prostitutes and set up private kickback deals with military contractors&#8221; which is both anti-union and supports &#8220;living in a totalitarian society ruled by big business interests&#8221; has nothing to do with Nazis that they are virtually indistinguishable from politically, you might like to revisit your assumptions. </p>
<p>America&#8217;s industrialists like Ford were openly in love with the Nazis. Eisenhower hired Hitler&#8217;s lawyers to run his administration (Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and CIA Director Allen Dulles). ]</em></p>
<p>Second, I think it&#8217;s a bit of a jump to say &#8220;Republicans secretly love fascism.&#8221; Fascism is tricky to pin down as an ideology, but generally it&#8217;s considered corporatist, militaristic, and authoritarian. Big business types somewhat openly loves the idea of corporatism (those state-enforced monopolies), but the average Republican is probably no more comfortable with authoritarianism and (real) military expansionism than you are. If nothing else, they&#8217;d be mad when Hitler took their guns away.  </p>
<p><em>[Please excuse me while I pick my jaw off the floor. The "average Republican" was not comfortable with authoritarianism while worshiping Bush for 8 years and insisting that if you are "not for us you are against us"? and is against military expansion while flag waving the illegitimate trillion dollar war in Iraq and "supporting" the death of +4000 troops to find WMDs and the missing link between 9/11 and Saddam? Oh please, I only eat things once. ]</em></p>
<p>And besides, Mussolini had plenty of love from the liberals back in the day.</p>
<p><em>[Right, because liberals loved communism AND the communism haters! Sorry, you'll need to reference more than a right wing jibberish book to support that idea. </p>
<p>As I said before, there is clearly not just two extreme positions of Right and Left in this country. There can't and shouldn't be. There should be two moderate major parties advocating different solutions, and some wilder fringes to offer alternative ideas without having the power to force them on the majority. </p>
<p>The problem is that particularly since Nixon, the Republican party has stopped being a conservative party and started down the road of extremist, racist (see Nixon's Souther Strategy) anti-government (See Reagan's trickle down, Star Wars Ray-Gun-omics) religious zealots lead by talk show hosts and militant separatists advocating terrorism (Palin). This joke needs to be punched into line. ]</em></p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/comment-page-2/#comment-18929</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3553#comment-18929</guid>
		<description>Geoffrobinson writes: &quot;The rich tend to be more liberal.&quot;
I disagree.

Here&#039;s a famous quote by GWB at a GOP fundraiser:

&quot;This is an impressive crowd…The &#039;haves&#039;..and the &#039;have mores&#039;! (laughter). Some call you the elite… I call you my base (raucous cheers).

On this, GWB and I can agree.

But I&#039;m not saying that being rich requires being ruthless and conservative. While it works that way for a lot of people, Steve Jobs and Apple have shown you can be liberal and simultaneously efficient, creative and successful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrobinson writes: &#8220;The rich tend to be more liberal.&#8221;<br />
I disagree.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a famous quote by GWB at a GOP fundraiser:</p>
<p>&#8220;This is an impressive crowd…The &#8216;haves&#8217;..and the &#8216;have mores&#8217;! (laughter). Some call you the elite… I call you my base (raucous cheers).</p>
<p>On this, GWB and I can agree.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m not saying that being rich requires being ruthless and conservative. While it works that way for a lot of people, Steve Jobs and Apple have shown you can be liberal and simultaneously efficient, creative and successful.</p>
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