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	<title>Comments on: Kaspersky Sells Mac AntiVirus Fear Using Charlie Miller&#8230; Mac AntiVirus Foe</title>
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	<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/</link>
	<description>Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco</description>
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		<title>By: Aleex4</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-22845</link>
		<dc:creator>Aleex4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-22845</guid>
		<description>The market is getting incredibly segmented because of so many different products. Add into the mix all the free offerings, and a very fickle and demanding product AND the incredible amount of new malware...it&#039;s just getting very hard to stand out from the crowd in this sector..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The market is getting incredibly segmented because of so many different products. Add into the mix all the free offerings, and a very fickle and demanding product AND the incredible amount of new malware&#8230;it&#8217;s just getting very hard to stand out from the crowd in this sector..</p>
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		<title>By: Are Macs more Safe than Secure? No &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-18712</link>
		<dc:creator>Are Macs more Safe than Secure? No &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 05:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-18712</guid>
		<description>[...] Kaspersky Sells Mac AntiVirus Fear Using Charlie Miller [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kaspersky Sells Mac AntiVirus Fear Using Charlie Miller [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pwn2Own contest winner: Macs are safer than Windows &#171; WebTaste &#124; Tasting everything online</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-18138</link>
		<dc:creator>Pwn2Own contest winner: Macs are safer than Windows &#171; WebTaste &#124; Tasting everything online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-18138</guid>
		<description>[...] winter Gregg Keizer wrote about Miller in Computerworld: &#8220;Criticizing security software for its cost — both in dollars and in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] winter Gregg Keizer wrote about Miller in Computerworld: &#8220;Criticizing security software for its cost — both in dollars and in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pwn2Own contest winner: Macs are safer than Windows &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-18124</link>
		<dc:creator>Pwn2Own contest winner: Macs are safer than Windows &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-18124</guid>
		<description>[...] winter Gregg Keizer wrote about Miller in Computerworld: “Criticizing security software for its cost — both in dollars and in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] winter Gregg Keizer wrote about Miller in Computerworld: “Criticizing security software for its cost — both in dollars and in the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: danieleran</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-18087</link>
		<dc:creator>danieleran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 02:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-18087</guid>
		<description>@ Mirage &quot;I thought I had read you reporting that Apple computers will not be at risk for attacks as they become more popular for the same reason that they are not under attack now. There was something inherent in OS X that made them safer.&quot;

There are lots of different aspects of what makes something secure. Mac OS X already implements a user security model that prevents people from installing software with elevated privileges without knowing they are; Windows does not, and when Vista does, it does so using UACs, but it screams about so much that it has effectively cried wolf.

So Mac OS X asks a user to supply their admin password, equivalent to an ATM asking users to supply their PIN, indicating that something is up  and that they shouldn&#039;t be installing this thing unless they are aware of what it does. 

On Windows, you can install crap just browsing the web. That&#039;s why to be &quot;infected&quot; by Mac malware, you have to download warez posing as stolen software and expressly give it control of your system, but on Windows you can just click buttons and end up with an adware box with viral infections, even if you&#039;re running Vista. 

It&#039;s like the difference in hitting your thumb with a hammer (something the vendor can&#039;t protect you from) and getting salmonella from eating peanut products you thought were safe (because the vendor doesn&#039;t care enough to ship safe products). One is a product problem, the other is YOUR problem. 

The only way Apple can prevent you from ever getting malware is to set up an app store and control what apps you can install. Like it did with the iPhone. Google is ok with you getting Android salmonella just like Microsoft is ok with Windows salmonella.

The tech media is content suggesting that hitting yourself with a hammer is Apple&#039;s version of salmonella, despite the fact that it isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mirage &#8220;I thought I had read you reporting that Apple computers will not be at risk for attacks as they become more popular for the same reason that they are not under attack now. There was something inherent in OS X that made them safer.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are lots of different aspects of what makes something secure. Mac OS X already implements a user security model that prevents people from installing software with elevated privileges without knowing they are; Windows does not, and when Vista does, it does so using UACs, but it screams about so much that it has effectively cried wolf.</p>
<p>So Mac OS X asks a user to supply their admin password, equivalent to an ATM asking users to supply their PIN, indicating that something is up  and that they shouldn&#8217;t be installing this thing unless they are aware of what it does. </p>
<p>On Windows, you can install crap just browsing the web. That&#8217;s why to be &#8220;infected&#8221; by Mac malware, you have to download warez posing as stolen software and expressly give it control of your system, but on Windows you can just click buttons and end up with an adware box with viral infections, even if you&#8217;re running Vista. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like the difference in hitting your thumb with a hammer (something the vendor can&#8217;t protect you from) and getting salmonella from eating peanut products you thought were safe (because the vendor doesn&#8217;t care enough to ship safe products). One is a product problem, the other is YOUR problem. </p>
<p>The only way Apple can prevent you from ever getting malware is to set up an app store and control what apps you can install. Like it did with the iPhone. Google is ok with you getting Android salmonella just like Microsoft is ok with Windows salmonella.</p>
<p>The tech media is content suggesting that hitting yourself with a hammer is Apple&#8217;s version of salmonella, despite the fact that it isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: lowededwookie</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-17999</link>
		<dc:creator>lowededwookie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-17999</guid>
		<description>The naysayers are either ignorant or just plain stupid to realise what MacOS X is built on... BSD Unix.

BSD has been around for almost 40 years and yet the last major damaging virus was around 20 years ago. It&#039;s not security from obscurity that  is protecting Macs it&#039;s a well engineered backend that is protecting us.

Why is it that no one is touring the insecurities of Linux? Same reason, Apple&#039;s just a more visible target for FUD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The naysayers are either ignorant or just plain stupid to realise what MacOS X is built on&#8230; BSD Unix.</p>
<p>BSD has been around for almost 40 years and yet the last major damaging virus was around 20 years ago. It&#8217;s not security from obscurity that  is protecting Macs it&#8217;s a well engineered backend that is protecting us.</p>
<p>Why is it that no one is touring the insecurities of Linux? Same reason, Apple&#8217;s just a more visible target for FUD</p>
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		<title>By: hmciv</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-17989</link>
		<dc:creator>hmciv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-17989</guid>
		<description>One day I&#039;d like to see a really good explanation of why Macs aren&#039;t targeted more in the wild.  

Difficulty?  Obscurity?  No Financial Gain?  Lack of Disdain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One day I&#8217;d like to see a really good explanation of why Macs aren&#8217;t targeted more in the wild.  </p>
<p>Difficulty?  Obscurity?  No Financial Gain?  Lack of Disdain?</p>
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		<title>By: Mirage</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-17988</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-17988</guid>
		<description>1. I thought I had read you reporting that Apple computers will not be at risk for attacks as they become more popular for the same reason that they are not under attack now. There was something inherent in OS X that made them safer. Popularity wouldn&#039;t change that. But now I read Miller explaining how OS X is a joke from a security standpoint, and how you say that once he doesn&#039;t show off his exploits anymore, we have to start worrying. 

I thought we Apple users were safe. I thought these security programs were going to be eternally useless to us. Yet, Miller claims that he might need to install security software if Apple ever reaches 30% of the market. Snow Leopard may be coming, but all this time, it sounds as though we&#039;ve just been sitting ducks in a flock too small to attack. Say it ain&#039;t so.

2. Also, if Miller knows about some sort of black market for exploits, why isn&#039;t he under some sort of police surveillance? Isn&#039;t all of that illegal? Is he really able to intimately know of an entire growing underground world of ethically-neutral anti-programmers and not worry about his own physical security? It sounds like an FBI movie or a TV pilot or something. 

I mean, how can this CanSecWest exist without every attendee compromising their own anonymity by attending? Doesn&#039;t the government scope out everybody there, or does the government do nothing because there&#039;s nothing it can do? These computer security &quot;conventions&quot; sound like shadowy gateways into some alternate Matrix-level reality where anything can happen for the right price.

3. Here is a relevant web comic strip on the issue: http://xkcd.com/538/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I thought I had read you reporting that Apple computers will not be at risk for attacks as they become more popular for the same reason that they are not under attack now. There was something inherent in OS X that made them safer. Popularity wouldn&#8217;t change that. But now I read Miller explaining how OS X is a joke from a security standpoint, and how you say that once he doesn&#8217;t show off his exploits anymore, we have to start worrying. </p>
<p>I thought we Apple users were safe. I thought these security programs were going to be eternally useless to us. Yet, Miller claims that he might need to install security software if Apple ever reaches 30% of the market. Snow Leopard may be coming, but all this time, it sounds as though we&#8217;ve just been sitting ducks in a flock too small to attack. Say it ain&#8217;t so.</p>
<p>2. Also, if Miller knows about some sort of black market for exploits, why isn&#8217;t he under some sort of police surveillance? Isn&#8217;t all of that illegal? Is he really able to intimately know of an entire growing underground world of ethically-neutral anti-programmers and not worry about his own physical security? It sounds like an FBI movie or a TV pilot or something. </p>
<p>I mean, how can this CanSecWest exist without every attendee compromising their own anonymity by attending? Doesn&#8217;t the government scope out everybody there, or does the government do nothing because there&#8217;s nothing it can do? These computer security &#8220;conventions&#8221; sound like shadowy gateways into some alternate Matrix-level reality where anything can happen for the right price.</p>
<p>3. Here is a relevant web comic strip on the issue: <a href="http://xkcd.com/538/" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/538/</a></p>
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		<title>By: qka</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-17967</link>
		<dc:creator>qka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-17967</guid>
		<description>Apple aids, abets, and profits from this FUD.

I was in my local Apple Store earlier today. There on the shelf was Symantec Anti-virus, both in a single product box and as part of an &quot;Internet Security&quot; suite. They were also selling the Intego &quot;security&quot; suite.

Then there was the flap a few months ago about Apple&#039;s website saying something to the effect that there might be viruses, and then they changed it to say no viruses.

Lack absolute, strong leadership from Apple on what viruses are of concern to Mac users (some? none?), this kind of FUD will only continue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple aids, abets, and profits from this FUD.</p>
<p>I was in my local Apple Store earlier today. There on the shelf was Symantec Anti-virus, both in a single product box and as part of an &#8220;Internet Security&#8221; suite. They were also selling the Intego &#8220;security&#8221; suite.</p>
<p>Then there was the flap a few months ago about Apple&#8217;s website saying something to the effect that there might be viruses, and then they changed it to say no viruses.</p>
<p>Lack absolute, strong leadership from Apple on what viruses are of concern to Mac users (some? none?), this kind of FUD will only continue.</p>
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		<title>By: cfJeff</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/03/20/kaspersky-sells-mac-antivirus-fear-using-charlie-miller-mac-antivirus-foe/comment-page-1/#comment-17956</link>
		<dc:creator>cfJeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/?p=3365#comment-17956</guid>
		<description>I think the angle of &quot;security experts&quot; writing dire security warnings is legit,   but...

The bottom line is Safari failed.   If Safari had held up like Chrome, there would be nothing much to write about.   We need Chrome for Mac or we need Safari to step up to the plate.

&lt;em&gt;[Not to knock Google&#039;s Chrome, which is doing some great things, but keep in mind that it&#039;s new and different and nobody has looked at it extensively. 

It&#039;s easy to write Safari off as &quot;failed,&quot; but what really happened here was that Miller exploited an open source library, likely another bug in the same package he discovered before. So Apple needs to keep working at finding and patching bugs, both in its own code and in the FOSS packages it uses, but be realistic here.

Look at the millions Microsoft has put into IE8 and Win7 to heighten security, and that platform &quot;fell&quot; as well. It&#039;s not like Apple isn&#039;t doing anything in security; both OS X and Safari are making a lot of progress.

Another think to consider is what everyone knows but the media refuses to say:  that Macs aren&#039;t being targeted, and that a lot of Apple&#039;s security features in Snow Leopard will kick in long before anyone significantly tries to attack the Mac. As I pointed out before, there&#039;s no money motivation, which Miller&#039;s comments are in agreement with. - Dan]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the angle of &#8220;security experts&#8221; writing dire security warnings is legit,   but&#8230;</p>
<p>The bottom line is Safari failed.   If Safari had held up like Chrome, there would be nothing much to write about.   We need Chrome for Mac or we need Safari to step up to the plate.</p>
<p><em>[Not to knock Google's Chrome, which is doing some great things, but keep in mind that it's new and different and nobody has looked at it extensively. </p>
<p>It's easy to write Safari off as "failed," but what really happened here was that Miller exploited an open source library, likely another bug in the same package he discovered before. So Apple needs to keep working at finding and patching bugs, both in its own code and in the FOSS packages it uses, but be realistic here.</p>
<p>Look at the millions Microsoft has put into IE8 and Win7 to heighten security, and that platform "fell" as well. It's not like Apple isn't doing anything in security; both OS X and Safari are making a lot of progress.</p>
<p>Another think to consider is what everyone knows but the media refuses to say:  that Macs aren't being targeted, and that a lot of Apple's security features in Snow Leopard will kick in long before anyone significantly tries to attack the Mac. As I pointed out before, there's no money motivation, which Miller's comments are in agreement with. - Dan]</em></p>
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