Daniel Eran Dilger
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Obama-Biden, McCain-Palin: Scandals by the Numbers

200810100033
Daniel Eran Dilger
Scandalous accusations are so hard to process without a smattering of numerical context. Here’s a look at brewing scandals by the numbers for each ticket in the 2008 Presidential Election: Barack Obama and Joe Biden vs. John McCain and Sarah Palin.
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Number of links to individuals or groups supporting violent terrorism:

200810092351

Obama: 1

  • Obama worked next to William Ayers on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a public school reform project funded by Republican billionaire Walter Annenberg. Ayers had been part of the former Weather Underground 40 years ago, which violently opposed the Vietnam War; Obama was never a member of the Weather Underground, but Ayers “in 1995 hosted a campaign event for Obama and in 2001 gave him a $200 contribution.”

Terrorist Criminal Links to the Presidential Candidates

Biden: 0

McCain: 2

  • Considers Watergate burglar G Gordon Liddy, who served four years in prison for crimes against the Constitution and who plotted to kill journalists and kidnap anti-war protest organizers, as “an old friend”; “Liddy’s home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator’s campaigns — including $1,000 this year.”
  • McCain was also a member of the “U.S. Council for World Freedom,” which backed terrorism connected with the Iran-Contra scandal and served as “a haven for extremists, racists and anti-Semites.”

With friends like these … — chicagotribune.com
McCain didn’t report ties to Contra group – Politico.com

Palin: 4

  • Palin has directly allied and supported Mark Chryson, a variety of anti-government militias, and the Alaska Independence Party, a group supported by the Islamic Republic of Iran to demonstrate Anti-American sentiments to the UN. Its founder is tied to violent terrorism and espousing of the use of nuclear weapons to destroy glaciers in Alaska before being killed by a fellow secessionist.
  • Palin also encourages and condones violence and death threats against her political rivals on the campaign trail, implying to her crowds that Obama is himself a terrorist.

Salon.com News | Meet Sarah Palin’s radical right-wing pals

Number terrorism links denounced by candidate:

Obama: 1

  • Has denounced Ayers’ violent past as “detestable acts.”

Biden: 0

McCain: 0

  • Still calls Liddy a close friend despite his inciting violent attacks on Federal agents. Has not denounced Libby’s criminal past or recent terrorist threats.
  • Left the U.S. Council for World Freedom after “questions were raised about its activities.” Prior to leaving, McCain had failed to disclose his membership in his personal financial disclosures to the US House. Has not denounced the group or its use of terrorism in Central America.

Palin: 0

  • Warmly welcomed the Alaska Independence Party this year; has never condemned its anti-American activities or its violent past. Continues to support separatists and militia groups seeking political favors.
  • Continues to fan terrorist threats against Obama.

Number of links to serious criminal investigations:

200810100000

Obama: 0

Biden: 0

McCain: 4

  • Keating Five scandal, which found McCain had acted in poor judgement in supporting Keating’s S&L fraud
  • Cleared his second wife, Cindy McCain, of felony drug abuse investigations from the DEA after she stole illegal drugs from her charity.
  • Ongoing allegations of failure to report gambling winnings as taxable income since at least 2000.
  • A series of shady actions taken on the part of lobbyists, including at least one with romantic involvement: lobbyist Vicki Iseman.

McCain Has Two Standards on Drug Abuse
For McCain, Self-Confidence on Ethics Poses Its Own Risk – New York Times

Palin: 3

  • Ongoing Troopergate Scandal related to abuse of power.
  • Ongoing scandal related to gifts from constituent special interests.
  • Ongoing tax evasion and fraud related to state paid per diem fees to live in her house and the failure to report these as income.

Number of links to inflammatory religious extremists:

200810092358

Obama: 2

  • Obama’s former preacher Jeremiah Wright fumed that the US was to blame for 9/11.
  • Nation of Islam’s Louis Farrakhan has voiced support for Obama despite the fact that Obama “did nothing to solicit Farrakhan’s support.”

Biden: 0

McCain: 1

  • McCain’s preacher John Hagee fumed that God had sent Hurricane Katrina to ravage New Orleans because a gay pride event was planned there, and preaches anti-semetic and anti-Catholic messages. Televangelist Hagee heads the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church and reaches a TV audience of millions. McCain actively sought the endorsement of Hagee.

CJR: The McCain-Hagee Connection

Palin: At least 3

  • Current pastor Larry Kroon prophesied in June that “God, instead of responding by granting spiritual renewal and sustained prosperity could just as easily… it’s conceivable that He could just as easily, for example, raise up a revived, prosperous and powerful Communist Russia with a web of alliances across the Middle East. And our gas pumps would go dry. The dollar would collapse. And the markets would crash. The kayak could go upside down. And it could happen in a matter of weeks. That could happen. It could happen by this fall.”

Palin’s Pastor: God “Is Gonna Strike Out His Hand Against…America”

  • Credits Bishop Thomas Muthee, revered as a witch hunter at Wasilla Assembly of God, with helping push her ascent as Governor of Alaska. Video from 2005 revealed Muthee preaching “take the economy back from Jews” rhetoric, saying “The Bible says that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous. It’s high time that we have top Christian businessmen, businesswomen, bankers, you know, who are men and women of integrity running the economics of our nations. If you look at the – you know – if you look at the Israelites, that’s how they work. And that’s how they are, even today.” Palin joined Muthee on stage moments later.

Sarah Palin has appeared to condone anti-Semitic remarks – guardian.co.uk
The Witch Fighter Anoints Palin

  • Christian Broadcasting Network vice president Jim Bramlett wrote to his evangelical audience, “Sarah [Palin] is that standard God has raised up to stop the flood. She has the anointing,” and described Palin as someone “gifted with prophetic command,” in contrast to Obama, who Bramlett described as being propelled only by his “eloquent oratory and his race.”

Jim Bramlett @ inJesus.com
The Crusaders : Rolling Stone
Birth Pangs of a New Christian Zionism

Number of inflammatory religious extremists denounced by candidate:

Obama: 2

  • Called Wright’s rhetoric “divisive and destructive,” and said “they end up giving comfort to those who prey on hate, and I believe that they do not portray accurately the perspective of the black church. They certainly don’t portray accurately my values and beliefs.”
  • Tim Russert of NBC News and Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen both drew attention to Obama’s unsolicited endorsement from Farrakhan, and Russert “asked Obama to reject Farrakhan’s support” during the democratic nominee candidate’s debates.

Biden: 0

McCain: Half

  • Said of Hagee’s Katrina comments “it’s nonsense. I reject that categorically,” although McCain actively sought Hagee’s [support] and appeared on stage with him, and has not been pressed to reject his support by the media or in debates.

Palin: 0

  • Has fully supported her preachers’ radical fundamentalist ideas and expresses the same ideas herself, entwined with her political policy aspirations. Has never spoken out against their comments or distanced herself from it.
  • Has not been pressed to reject the support of any radical preachers by the media or in debates.

Reports of voter fraud:

200810092358-1

Obama-Biden Ticket: suggested

  • Reports allege problems with ACORN voter registrations among poor citizens, voters who would mostly likely benefit the democratic ticket. However, false registration are fraud against ACORN, which pays volunteers to register voters. The hundreds of alleged fake voters that have been registered are not going to show up to vote. Rather than voter fraud, there has been fraud against ACORN as an organization, which has ended up paying for invalid voter registrations. Police have raided ACORN offices and taken equipment.

Another look at the ACORN furor – War Room

McCain-Palin Ticket: documented

  • The Montana GOP pushed to remove 6,000 voters from democratic counties, often related to University populations that would favor Obama. The GOP backed down after being challenged. This fraud would have directly disenfranchised voters. Police have not raided the Montana GOP offices nor taken equipment.
  • Conservative reporter John Stossel, a critic of global warming science, has prepared a segment for 20/20 that suggests young voters are not informed enough to vote. Titled “Maybe It’s Your Civic Duty Not To Vote,” the segment compares voting with brain surgery and concludes “maybe instead of telling people things like ‘Rock the Vote,’ these groups should say ‘Rock or Vote.’” Stossel didn’t suggest vetting voters’ knowledge of the issues in general, but does suggest that young voters, who overwhelmingly favor Obama, should not be allowed to vote.

John Stossel To Run Hatchet Piece on Young Voter Engagement

  • Along those lines, “Young voters at Drexel University in Philadelphia, Penn. have already been targeted, with students reporting that flyers have been posted around campus warning that undercover police will be at the polls on Election Day looking to make arrests.”

ABC News: ‘Tis the Season of Election Dirty Tricks: Scaring Student Voters

  • “Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering in ways that appear to violate federal law, according to a review of state records and Social Security data by The New York Times.”

States’ Actions to Block Voters Appear Illegal – NYTimes.com

Did I miss any scandals? Let me know! Send in links worthy of mention.

Other articles on current events:
Terrorist Criminal Links to the Presidential Candidates
The Big Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac Attack
Osama Bin Laden’s Dream of US Economic Collapse
You Know the Drill?
Ten Striking Parallels Between Microsoft and John McCain
Obama’s Apple, McCain’s Microsoft: the Politics of Tech

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  • Ludor

    Holy cow on rye. Dear, confident republicans, I know skilled rhetorics and smart layout often tells a different story than raw numbers, but I just cannot see how these connections could be rebutted. Any takers?

    Palin scares me. But then again, I’m European.

  • LuisDias

    Don’t worry, Ludor, the GOP brigade is coming to refute all this with rethorical blah blah.

  • hodari

    This is even better – Political Streams is the first of what is likely to be a number of vertically focused streams built atop Microsoft Live Lab’s new “Social Streams” platform that is designed to index “social media” from around the Web, including blogs, newsgroups, news sites and discussions. Social Streams builds on new data-mining, inference and higher-order patterning technologies under investigation by Live Labs team members. – Thanks Microsoft good concept!

    http://socialstreams.livelabs.com/politics/

  • buddy

    Don’t forget Ron Parsley as another religious nutjob connected to McCain.

  • wings

    C’mon Dan, enough with politics. Stay focused on technology.

  • hmciv

    So what Dan is saying here is that Obama is inexperienced. ;-)

  • http://blog.tice.de Tice

    This woman is so scary. I go with Matt Damon when he asks: “Will this woman have the codes to the nuclear missles???”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk

  • LuisDias

    Don’t you love these robots that are constantly telling what you should or not write, Dan? As if people bought Roughly Drafted…

  • patwalker

    Honestly, stick to tech.

    Quite frankly, Obama is just as bad as McCain; the US political system is rotten. These “scandals” prove that in America, one has to lambaste your opponent with crap way out in the middle of nowhere to hide the fact that the two-party system has converged into one amorphous political unit. The “right” attacks “liberals” and the “liberals” attack the Jesusfreaks but at the end of the day pass the same type of legislation.

    They bicker on issues of irrelevance (abortion, gun control) and agree on matters of importance (trade policy, corporate regulation).

    The GOP have been like the rock of Gibraltar in US politics. Unmovable so Democrats have had to reposition themselves based on a fixed point, which leads, unsurprsingly to candidates like Clinton and Obama.

    Obama’s legislative record is quite abyssmal and rather Bush-like in that it’s rather pro-corporate (voted for “tort reform”, deregulated the nuclear industry for cash, put forward worthless shareholder regulations over executive pay, his trade positions, etc). The only reason why McCain had voted 95% for Bush in the last year was to avoid strife in the party. McCain needed the Bush machine … so McCain didn’t show up for votes like FISA.

    The Democratic Congress is at an all-time low (10-15%) for a reason. They let Bush run wild. The Democrats have ceased being an opposition party and to think that an Obama presidency will be that much different is VERY unlikely.

    [What sets Obama apart is that his unlikely campaign was supported by individuals. I shared your cynicism, and no, I don’t think Obama will usher in a glorious thousand years of Golden Age, but this election isn’t about right or left politics, and isn’t even about McCain. It’s about a party that has destroyed the country over the last 8 years. Clinton made some mistakes, but Bush has simply wrecked the US financially, morally, and ethically.

    Apart from running a very hypocritical campaign that skits issues and throws mud, McCain is an okay candidate. The problem is that he’s inches from dying and he’s set up a radical ideologue behind himself. Palin isn’t just unprepared, she is wildly dangerous. Bush has already set up an executive branch with too much unchecked power, and Palin has had no qualms in expressing the desire to grab more power and use it to further her fundamentalist cause of pushing a state religion. This is not even controversial; the extreme right and evangelicals are talking about her as a the prophet messiah.

    Obama is portrayed by the extremist right as being super liberal, but the liberals all describe him as being too centrist. What I like about Obama is that he has actually outlined a policy that is reasonable on backing out of the Bush crisis and setting up new transparency rules to escape the ‘government of the special interests’ and an investment in technology and infrastructure.

    Calling the both the republicans and democrats corrupt in general terms might be cynically accurate, but Obama is not a typical democrat. Also, while I share you disillusionment with the 2006 democrats who did nothing to challenge Bush, I can also recognize that had they thrown up a stalemate and initiated impeachment two years ago, the nation’s problems would have been thrown upon them even more than they are, and they would likely not have been able to impeach Bush in the existing climate anyway. By supporting Bush’s plans, they demonstrated how badly those policies were.

    A revolt against Bush would likely have also created a backlash that may have prevented Obama from getting elected or a democratic sweep of the senate, which appears very likely. Sometimes, it’s better to hold your cards than throw them down before you can do anything about it. If Obama is elected, I can see his administration cooperating with worldwide efforts to prosecute the Bush administration on war crimes. That would have been far more difficult while Bush was in office and while his administration was demanding that it operated above the law.

    I also hope Obama takes action against all the churches who served as branches of the republican campaign while operating under the radar of non-taxable organizations. Efforts to rein in radical Islamists worldwide can’t happen as long as American is ripped apart by radical evangelists here at home. So yes, there are massive differences between Obama and McCain and the election is not just more of the same. It is hugely pivotal in ways that US politics haven’t been before in my lifetime.]

  • Baroosk

    OK this isn’t flame bait. I live in Alaska and disagree with Daniel’s assertion of the Alaska Independence Party’s “anti-American” activities.

    I am not a member, but their activities have been to push for Alaskan secession from the Union. It’s members did not want statehood, but rahter Nation-hood. They feel Alaska was ripped off by our statehood agreement.

    Such protest is not unAmerican, rather an expression of the freedoms we DO HAVE in this country.

    They are not violent or anti-American, rather a registered political party up here with an agenda of making Alaska an independent nation.

    Thanks!
    John from Fairbanks

    [Thanks for the comment John. I earlier presented that efforts to split from the US (as AIR hoped to) were too complex to generalize. However, the AIR’s rather radical founder (talking about nuking glaciers, expressing a seething hatred for the US government, and dealing with C4 to make a splash about it) makes it relevant to compare the group with the Weather Underground; the difference is that AIR still exists and the Palins were part of it and still connected to it, while Obama hasn’t ever associated with the Weather Underground, which ceased to exist after the Vietnam War ended.

    So while there may be valid, non-violent protest regarding Alaska’s statehood or independence, it remains grossly hypocritical for Palin to present herself as a supporter of AIR while also wrapped in an American flag and throwing around anti-American accusations about the slight connection between Obama and Ayers (while also referring to Ayres as an active “domestic terrorist” when he is not involved in any terrorism and hasn’t been for as long as I have been alive (and well before Obama was ten). That’s the hypocrisy.

    Anyone who represents or aligns themselves with the Confederacy or secession efforts is not qualified to take leadership role in the Federal US Government for obvious reasons, let alone running for president behind a man on death’s door. The fact that Palin has been syphoning off massive amounts of Federal dollars (particularly in per capita terms!) while her state is afloat in oil wealth and while acting to support independence from the US is also a huge conflict of interest and grossly inappropriate.]

  • BigDan

    Keep it up Dan, I’m loving the politics. There’s only so much you can write about Apple, to me this is a very welcome and timely diversion.
    I’m in the UK and almost every single time I switch on Fox News they’re talking about Obama’s terrorist friends. It is truly frightening how biased they can be and still call themselves fair and balanced (something that was literally laughed out of court when they tried to sue Al Franken).
    This is a brilliant list and something I wish the Obama people would offer. Every time another smear campaign is launched they should be pointing people to http://www.barackobama.com/facts where the lies are taken down in a couple of quick paragraphs.
    And if you don’t like the politics just skip the story and come back tomorrow where there will likely be another Apple story to pour over.

  • droughtquake

    Those who complain about the topics Dan chooses to write on his own site act as if there is no connection between technology and politics! It’s interesting how most of the more influential and significant technology companies are based in Blue States…

  • gus2000

    After I watched the video above, I spent a few minutes at http://www.blumenthal.com to watch a few more. Now I want to throw up. My only consolations are Obama’s lead in the polls, and watching the GOP self-destruct on a daily basis.

    The most frightening words in politics are “Hello, I’m from the Republican Party, and I’m here to help!”

  • qzg

    To all Obama supporters:
    If your man gets elected, I give two years before you are sick of him. That includes you, Dan.
    As a matter of fact, I’m going to make a prediction myself: within two years of an Obama presidency, Dan will blog an apology for how wrong he was to back this candidate. He will very eloquently explain how nobody could have seen it coming and how angry he is that he was so deceived by their typical political rhetoric. He will probably show how, in retrospect, it should have been obvious that he *couldn’t* have delivered on all of his campaign promises and that the ones he DID deliver on exacerbated existing problems.

    Obama is not the solution to our country’s issues. He will bring much worse problems than even what he promises to fix (that he won’t).

    I will concede that Dan’s fact-gathering is spectacular and that he makes a terrific case both FOR Obama and AGAINST McCain. HOWEVER, what is evident to me is that even if a McCain administration is unable to *fix* our country’s issues, it isn’t going to make it worse. Worst-case for an Obama administration, on the other hand is pretty dire, IMHO.

    I welcome opposing (or supporting) *opinions* and predictions.

    [You may be right that many who hope to see Obama turn the USA 180 degrees and solve 8 years of damage in 2 years will be disappointed. But I think you’re wrong in suggesting that Obama will cause problems. If all Obama ever does is make it clear that America is again a country where ANYONE CAN, then he will be wildly successful as a president.

    On the other hand, a McCain presidency would be DISASTROUS from day one. If the republicans are awarded (or steal) the election, it will a stamp of approval for filthy dirty politics and lying hypocrites, and the new generation will turn to cynical hate of the state to an extent that is already troubling. It will also fan the fundamentalist wingnut movement, and McCain will be able to claim, as Bush did in 2004, that he had “political capital to spend.” That will usher in a wave of destruction that won’t take two years to recognize.

    This election isn’t about R and D, it’s about 95% of America vs. the ultra wealthy elite who want a fascist government that only supports their interests. Palin is just window dressing to hyperagitate the masses. And God help us if McCain gets elected and chokes on a pretzel.]

  • jdoc

    Obama has nothing to lose. If the country does poorly over the next few years, or if he cannot pass some or all of his entitlement programs, then he’ll blame the Bush administration. If he succeeds, then he’ll be treated like the second coming. It’s politics, plain and simple. The GOP would do the same. There’s no way Obama can lose now, with the economy in this state. The incumbent party always loses in this situation, regardless of the reasons. I just hope that all of those bright people surrounding him give him some good advice.

  • gus2000

    Dan wanted more scandals. How about being immersed in depravity?

    According to city-data.com, Wasilla, AK is home to 63 registered sex offenders; but with a population around 10,000 they have a ratio of 155 to 1. This is a shockingly high number. Nearby Anchorage, a relatively large city, has a 337:1 ratio or roughly half.

    But what about those liberal, big-city havens of sin and corruption like, say, San Francisco? They’re at 1214:1, or almost 10 times lower. Even Las Vegas, the city of sin, only reaches 435:1. Or, Los Angeles, the Mecca of liberal elite, has a very low 1011:1 ratio.

    Well then surely New York City, that social cesspool swimming in Godless whores must be the worst of all, right? Hmmm, with only 413 total registered sex offenders, they have a ratio of 20035:1.

    Not that I think Palin (or any other individual) bears any responsibility for these numbers, but the small-town folk have little cause to pat themselves on the back for their wholesomeness, or claim a moral superiority over their urban counterparts.

  • nelsonart

    qzg is probably correct. We’ve seen this before where a candidate bases his campaign on a promise and then doesn’t deliver. I won’t mention names as you all know Bill.

    Obama won’t be destructive? Let’s see… massive tax hikes that will absolutely slam this country into a deep recession followed by massive new spending to kick it while it’s down.

    Yeah, no problems there!

    The scorecard was ridiculous and lost me at Acorn and Ayers.

    [Your inability to offer any factual correction is actually an endorsement of what I presented. Clinton was unable to deliver his planned policies because he inherited an unexpectedly massive debt from Bush Sr., and Greenspan insisted that he cut everything in order to prevent economic disaster. Clinton put the well being of the nation ahead of his own political agenda. Bush did the opposite.]

  • qzg

    Dan-
    To be clear, I do not merely predict “disappointment”; I predict the same level of distaste you now have for McCain turned toward Obama.

    I think that it is ironic that you point to the Obama campaign as the alternative that will show that “America is again a country where ANYONE CAN”; in my opinion, he will turn into a country where “nobody bothers trying”.

    It is my *opinion* that Obama is campaigning on what he thinks will get him elected – not on what he will actually do – not nearly what he will actually do. What I *believe* he will actually do is institute socialism in every area of our economy that he can, amplify the voice of “the few” (as opposed to the majority) in law and oppress religious liberties (particularly of the Christian majority). I oppose all of these things. Since I don’t believe I can believe what Obama says he will do is what he will do, and I DO believe that what McCain says he will do is what he will do, my choice is obvious.

    [You’re worried that Obama will ‘amplify the voice of the few,’ why? Are you under the impression that he will singlehandedly usher in socialism with the support of Warren Buffett at his side? This is absurdity. Please present some facts behind your premise that America will fall to ‘socialism.’ While you’re at it, please outline how anyone could possibly top Bush in this regard. What areas of the financial world are left for the federal government to socialize? Bush has bailed out everything from insurance to banking to manufacturers. This was all necessary because of the Bush administration’s failed deregulation policies. Does the market need the rule of law? Yes. Should it require trillion dollar bailouts every time the Republicans gain too much control? No.

    And when you worry of “oppression of religious liberties” and “particularly of the Christian majority,” you do realize that the majority is not who gets oppressed, right? The Constitution wasn’t drafted to ensure the rights of the rich powerful and dominant. A Constitution isn’t needed for that. The rule of law is to prevent oppression of minorities by frenzied mobs. The Republican minority (and it is a minority) has led Americans into believing a series of lies based on fear that have been catastrophic for the nation. Working to instill more irrational fear does not enhance your position.]

  • Nathan

    Daniel,

    I enjoy objective and calculated reasoning in any form, technology or politics. Keep up the good work.
    I’m from Alaska and am scared of Palin’s proximity to the US Presidency. I didn’t vote for her the first time; I’m not going to vote for her this time either.

  • http://www.semiophore.net semiosys

    Both candidates must have sulphurous relationships, otherwise they would not be candidates. This is not a perfect world.
    A long time before 911, Mark Lombarti depicted for instance links between Bush family and B. Laden family and others interesting names from the financial world. There was an exibition of his drawing at Drawing Center, NYC see here : http://www.drawingcenter.org/exh_past.cfm?exh=121 or see here for instance http://www.albany.edu/museum/wwwmuseum/work/lombardi/
    or simply google his name. After the Bush Jr puppet, one wonders whether there is freedom of action for a president.

    [I’d agree that one has to slog through a lot of mud to make it to the presidential ticket as an electable candidate. However, I also see a difference between an unsubstantial placeholder candidate groomed by the party (such as Bush or Palin) and a self motivated longshot who beats out the machine favorite in the popular primaries and even wins over support from the intellectual side of the opposition party ]

  • airmanchairman

    What is worrying is how hard it is to see any qualities of Compassion AND Vision in the personages on either side of this contest, and given the state of the world economy, ecology and geopolitical climate, those qualities have never been more needed in a country of the global stature of the USA.

    Vision to know what to act on, when this would be most effective, and compassion to do the right and just thing once the former has been identified.

    Not a very uplifting prospect, but keep hope alive…

  • The Mad Hatter

    Dan,

    If you want change, voting Democrat won’t bring it. The democrats and Republicans are so close that they effectively are two wings of the same party. Instead you should vote Cynthia McKinney.

  • Joe Sa

    @ nelsonart said_”qzg is probably correct. We’ve seen this before where a candidate bases his campaign on a promise and then doesn’t deliver. I won’t mention names as you all know Bill.

    ” Yeah, a balanced budget & a surplus is a bad thing.
    Yugoslavian conflict handled. Somalia was a mistake but, Reagan had Lebanon.

    I think you mean George “I’m uniter not a divider” W.
    Record deficits
    a politicizing of the justice department
    the handling of Katrina (Gutting FEMA & putting a horse show guy in charge). Under Clinton FEMA was a world class operation.
    Spying on Americans & Americans soldiers.
    Lying about yellow cake to sell a war to an angry & fearful country.
    Using 911 as political tactic.
    Telling us there is no insurgency happening.
    The insurgency is in it’s last throws. ( 2? 3? years ago)
    A Republican congress that went along with everything he did until it was no longer politically viable to do so.
    The intrusion in to private matters & lives (Terry Schiavo).
    A supposed conservative no, no.
    A belief in states rights until it is inconvenient.
    Using the evangelicals to get elected & basically just paying them lip service afterward.
    Mishandling of Iraq (In every way imaginable). Prolonging the War costing the country in American blood & treasure. The spin seems to be that we are on the verge of winning, we can’t dwell in the past. The problem with that argument is that lives were lost & changed forever all because a highly functioning moron could not change the course he was on & led the country into an unnecessary war. In reality they never had a plan. They cherry picked information & fired or retired anyone that disagreed.
    Total disregard for the Constitution. Something a President takes an oath to uphold when sworn in.
    Outing of a CIA agent. Treason in his father’s words (GHW Bush).
    Constantly lying to the American people on every issue from war to the economy.
    Abu Ghraib.
    Allowing the Afghani “rebels” to take the lead in catching Osama Bin Laden. Nixing plans presented by special forces to come from Pakistan & attack Bin Laden from behind.
    Walter Reed & other veterans affairs.
    Body Amour.
    Halliburton no bid contracts & fleecing of the American taxpayer & soldiers.
    Blackwater: A mercenary force that doesn’t have to follow the rules & conduct of the US military….also ripping off the tax payer.
    Water boarding. So dumb he doesn’t realize how this will effect American POWs in future conflicts.
    Secret interrogation sites.
    Disgracing an honorable man’s reputation (Colin Powell)
    that was on his side. To achieve an agenda.
    Blowing a major oppourtunity to unite the country after 911…tells everyone to go shopping.
    Thinks as KING of the US that he can ad his own notes to laws & cross out what he doesn’t like.
    His Vice President thinks that he is part of the Legislative branch when the Constitution clearly states the VP is part of the executive branch & can only vote in the Senate to break a tie.
    No respect for the three branches of Government.
    Jack Abramoff. Enron writing energy policy.
    Loss of respect around the world. Of course Energy policy meetings fall under executive privilege, just like everything else.
    Ignoring of subpoenas from Congress by cabinet members.
    A total lack of a diplomatic game.
    “Bring it on” doesn’t realize that as President of the United States when he speaks the world is listening & reacting. “Axis of evil”…I’d love to play poker with this idiot. The ranch in Crawford would be mine.
    Empowering Iran.
    Calling for the elections in Palestine to go forward against plenty of advice not to do so. Hezbollah now in charge. Smart.
    Financial meltdown.
    The list goes on & on & on & on. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Total disgrace.
    A Republican majority that resided over this mess with NO checks & balances.
    Name one president that even comes close to the total disaster of this Presidency.
    Also, name one President that achieved everything they have set out to do. Life is about compromise. I see Clinton’s era as mostly positive. Bush’s era is a steaming pile of shit & the country will be paying for it for many years to come. Hey, I’ve got an idea let’s put another high functioning moron a heart beat away from the Presidency!!! That would be great.
    How can anyone with a modicum of gray matter make an argument for this Presidency? It is a deep hole that the next President has to dig this country out of. The ideologues need to snap themselves into reality or take this country down with them.

  • nelsonart

    Actually what I was referring to was saying one thing during the campaign and then doing the opposite when elected. Anyone that has followed Obama for the last few months has to wonder what he’ll do once elected. My guess is unbelievable deficits from massive new entitlement programs with little, if any, tax relief.

    I take it you don’t like Bush?

  • tundraboy

    @Joe Sa. Nice list.

    I come to it from the opposite direction:

    Name one thing that George W. Bush did that has redounded to the benefit of a majority of the U.S. population?

    Answer: None, zero, zilch, nada, nil, nought, null set, empty set.

    George W. Bush.
    The. Worst. President. Ever.
    Disastrous foreign policy. Failed economic policy. Destructive environmental and energy policy. Criminal human rights policy. Immoral. Unethical. Felon. Moron.
    The man who broke America.

    And which party foisted this fool upon us? And we’re supposed to elect the next fool they have in the pipeline?

  • mango

    “The problem is that he’s inches from dying and he’s set up a radical ideologue behind himself. Palin isn’t just unprepared, she is wildly dangerous.”

    Ok, who says that McCain is inches from dying? Just because the man has grey hair and is old doesn’t mean he is going to die in office. In fact, since he has lived this long and survived torture for numerous year as a pow, there is a good chance he has better genes than all of us and will continue to outlive all of us. What suggests Obama will live longer than McCain, other than age? This is a pointless argument.

    [Better genes? See, I was thinking along the lines that he’s older than Reagan’s second term, and is already losing it. Age is how we factor insurance rates. It’s not superstition.]

    Next Palin is unprepared? Ok, maybe she doesn’t have a long resume, but I don’t think Obama has much to brag about either. Before the elections nobody new of Obama and the same applies for Palin. In fact Palin is only running for VICE President, Obama is running for President. They both have about the same experience, NONE.

    [Palin isn’t unprepared because she’s only 44 or has a few years of executive experience. She’s unprepared because she has demonstrated no interest in anything beyond pushing her church agenda, and knows nothing about the world outside of her small town. This is willing ignorance. She’s worth millions and hasn’t traveled at the age of 40? She’s irrational and sheltered, hardly presidential cloth.]

    “Name one president that even comes close to the total disaster of this Presidency”

    Let see, Abraham Lincoln, when he took power the country was one Union. During his presidency North and South almost destroyed each other in a Civil War. At the end of his presidency the country was still one Union, only economically destroyed and bankrupt. Even the freeing of the slaves didn’t become a true reality until years later during the civil rights movement. Yet, he is regarded as one of the best presidents in history. I wonder how Bush will be viewed in the eyes of history.

    [Most people wouldn’t pick Lincoln as a terrible president, but clearly you are not most people.]

    “By supporting Bush’s plans, they demonstrated how badly those policies were.”

    That’s right , I was for the war before I was against it… or did I get it messed up…… confusing.
    I think I would rather have somebody do what they thought was best and right for our country even if they turned out wrong. Instead we have politicians playing mind games to prove who was right or wrong. Yet we suffer.

    “..use it to further her fundamentalist cause of pushing a state religion. ”

    Ahh. Thats right things like “no stealing, no murdering, don’t commit adultery, don’t lie, don’t covet.” Thats right, this is the downfall of America. I wish we didn’t have these religious things in our government either. Our prisons wouldn’t be full, thats for sure.

    “Clinton was unable to deliver his planned policies because he inherited an unexpectedly massive debt from Bush Sr., and Greenspan insisted that he cut everything in order to prevent economic disaster. CLINTON PUT THE WELL BEING OF THE NATION AHEAD of his own political agenda. Bush did the opposite.”

    I guess the “Monica thing” was the part where Clinton “took one for the team” and trying to make America safer from radical Islamists, despite the polls, is pushing a political agenda.

    [It was the republicans that did the monica thing. That was a diversion from running the nation. Since then, they’ve perpetuated pretty profound hypocrisy in the moralism department. Bush also ignored the radical Islamist threat intelligence Clinton handed him until 9/11, after which he pursued war on Iraq instead of the Saudi terrorists hiding in Afghanistan.]

    “Water boarding. So dumb he doesn’t realize how this will effect American POWs in future conflicts.”

    That’s right. I forgot, the terrorist actually read the Geneva Convention to see if beheading prisoners was included. I’m sure are military is a lot safer now.

    Oh and by the way, I like the tech articles better.
    Cheers

  • greendave

    Dan, I got confused, just let me know do these people you are talking about use PCs or Macs? Then I will know who to support.

  • http://www.radianttechnology.net Windinthedust

    @ tundraboy;

    You’re probably too young; I would qualify that as- “the worst president ever, that is, besides Jimmy Carter”

    Do a little research about the years 1977-1981; we’ve all been here before- except that 1980-1981 was MUCH worse economically then today.

  • http://www.radianttechnology.net Windinthedust

    After Nixon, the country was ready for an “unknown peanut farmer”.

    After Bush, the country is again ready for an “unknown community organizer”

  • Joe Sa

    @Windinhurst…
    please enlighten us with your “research”.

    After Bush, the country is again ready for an “unknown community organizer”
    Who has been vetted for 2 years. What about Gov. Palin the country has had only 6 weeks to vet her & she is not helping her own case. Aw shucks, golly gee, wink, wink, nudge, nudge…just what the country needs.

  • nelsonart

    Don’t forget, Obama is running for President. There is a difference in standards. Did Kennedy and Bill and probably dozens of others arrive at the job with tons of experience? Hmmm.

    I can name a lot more than 1 thing that Bush has done to our nation’s benefit, but if I have to spell it out, it will deprive some of you of the joys of research.

  • tundraboy

    @WindintheDus.

    No. I remember Carter. Was there a disastrous foreign war? Was there an economic collapse then deemed the most serious since the depression? An economic crisis that required the government to bail out major brokerage and insurance houses? There was an oil crisis but did he cause it? No. Did he try to address it? Yes. Guess who dismantled the Carter energy program that aimed at reducing our demand for foreign oil? Reagan. Was there an attack on the constitution? Were we condoning torture and excusing it as ‘enhanced interrogation’? Carter may have been inept. But Bush is immoral, incompetent and downright stupid. Stupid as in below-average-IQ stupid. Too stupid even to chair your local PTA much less be president of the world’s most powerful country. The only person that out-dumbs him is Palin.

  • Joe Sa

    @ nelson art: Actually what I was referring to was saying one thing during the campaign and then doing the opposite when elected. Anyone that has followed Obama for the last few months has to wonder what he’ll do once elected. My guess is unbelievable deficits from massive new entitlement programs with little, if any, tax relief.

    I take it you don’t like Bush?

    I’m just stating facts…do you have a dispute with any of them?
    If so feel free to respond.
    What exactly is McCain’s plan (this week)? To buy up all the bad mortgages at market value putting the burden on the American tax payer & helping the people that got us into this mess?
    AIG execs decide to take a wonderful spa vacation to the tune of $450,000 after we bail their sorry, arrogant asses out. Let’s let them have the keys to the car again, because if they are doing well we all are!!!
    Little tax relief to who?
    Obama’s plan gives tax relief to 95% of Americans, not the other way around. What makes more sense to you putting money in the hands of 95% of the country or investing in 5%? Who do you think will put that money into the economy & spread it around? Most small businesses make less than $250,000 dollars a year. The rest will see there taxes go up to REGAN era levels.
    He also has stated that the budget in some areas will be cut, not with a axe like approach that McCain seems to prefer, but by taking a look at the whole & getting rid of what does not work.

    “My guess is unbelievable deficits”

    You mean like now? The largest in the history of the country.
    All brought to you buy a Republican President & a majority Republican Congress. Hey, let’s not delve into facts…let’s blame Clinton & “a peanut farmer”. Let’s use talking points that date back to the 1960s! How about an objective look at the last 8 years. Yes Democrats had some contribution, but your arguments are like comparing a snowflake to an an avalanche. They both contain snow. Therefore they are exactly the same.
    Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. Unbelievable deficits, unregulated mortgage lenders,industries etc., etc., etc. All happening NOW & for the last 8 years. Who had an overwhelming, walk in lock step majority in Congress? Who made policy for the country for at least six out of the last 8 Years? Who had oversight responsibilities?
    Who was insulting our allies & insinuating that any American that differed in this administration’s point of view was un-American & unpatriotic, when in realty the countries well being depends on that critical point of view.

    Did Nixon get everything done that he PROMISED to get done?
    Did Reagan accomplish everything he set out to do?
    What about George Herbert Walker “read my lips no new taxes” Bush?
    & his son….laughable & sad.
    Remember he wasn’t a washington insider either…well at least according to him.

    The economical policies of this President along with his party have left the middle of America devastated & picking up the tab. Maybe we should give a tax break to those who have left us in this situation, not only now but also during Reagan & Bush 1.
    All Presidents have goals that they want to achieve. All presidents should have a vision for the country. That is what leaders do. There will always be opposition to anything from some party or group. These are issues that Americans care about. All you give me is certain failure for anything Barack Obama does & certain success for McCain? Based on what historical or current context? Not Quite.
    What about John McCain? All over the road. Erratic. Where’s his vision? I believe John Mcain is a good man. I think Mr. McCain forgot what got him the nomination & started listening to the same people that advised George W.
    A big mistake & poor judgement on his part. His choice in a Vice President: even conservative columnists & leaders are questioning her credentials & capacity to understand & be curious of the world around her, another lapse in judgement.
    The fundementals of the economy are strong. I am by nature a deregulator. We will be greeted as liberators. Tax breaks in the middle of 2 wars is irresponsible…ah a moment of clarity…but that changed to more tax cuts for the wealthiest of Americans because we all know that if you give more to those that have they will take care of everyone else. Nonsense. Proven wrong every time it happens. All over the road & erratic. His ACTUAL voting record when it comes to veterans affairs does not jibe well with his persona. The New GI Bill for example…was against it, did not show up to vote on it & then does a photo op with the president to take credit for a bill that the President would have also vetoed & John McCain was against. The only reason the bill passed is because democrats & republicans together had enough votes to over ride the President’s Veto. Bush had no choice but to sign it. Bad judgement.

    http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=90998846F7BBC36D235E0EBBB7687CC0?diaryId=1973

    John McCain flew in to Washington like superman to save us all & did nothing. No one followed his advice & he wasn’t in conference with much of anyone. It was a cheap political stunt. Another hail Mary pass in a campaign full of hail Mary passes & erratic behavior. If anything he made matters worse. Then he takes credit, on national TV, for getting the bail out bill passed before it passes. The bill fails because of a divide in his own party. A crisis that needed calm & a bit of humility turned into a cheap, irresponsible political tactic, at the expense of the American people. Bad judgment & a disconnect with his own party & his influence on them.

    His healthcare plan is basically you’re on your own masquerading as “I want the American people to have a choice” A five thousand dollar tax credit for families, $2500 if you’re single. A TAX on employer provided healthcare….wait isn’t that a tax? How much will that cost ME & YOU?

    A pull yourself up by your own boot straps philosophy in which most of them neither have lived or come close to understanding. Maybe I should have said understandin’ & dropped the G, that’s all it seems to take for a portion of American’s to give a candidate credibility. No critical thinking, in fact not much thinking going on at all.

    A candidate that has been around the national scene for six weeks telling us we now more about her, by golly, than someone who has been in the nation spotlight & vetted for 2 years. A hockey mom.
    Bullshit. A candidate that doesn’t actually answer most of the question asked at a debate, but just keeps repeating the talking points that she has memorized while getting a lot f facts just plain wrong including the Generals name that is in charge of operations in Afghanistan, several times. A candidate that will only do interviews with only certain so called “news organizations.” A person that can’t answer tough questions like. What do you read? Blathers on about personal responsibility & thinks she has no responsibility to answer tough questions from the press in regards to the American people. She can’t handle the American press & were suppose to believe she can handle less than friendly, even hostile leaders around the world?
    You Betcha. By Golly. Sell that snake oil to someone else.

    Trying to link Sen. Obama to terrorism & domestic terrorism, playing to the wing nuts in this country for votes & telling everyone he is not doing that. Knowing full well this country’s issues with assassination & political violence. Irresponsible behavior…another problem with judgement. Now, Sen. McCain has to tone down the wig-nuts that he & his running mate have inflamed with half truths & innuendo. These uninformed Americans have actually made the link that his campaign has been feeding them & has taken this country to an ugly place. Country First.
    How many of your family members take advantage of those entitlement programs? How many people do you know that have health care through an employer? What background do you come from that you can actually speak about working middle class Americans?
    I grew up in a family where my father was a factory worker & my mom immigrated here from Sicily. My dad worked hard his whole life to support 5 children & our family benefitted from having the health care plan that UNIONS fought for & pay scales that built the middle class. Things were still tight. People fought for these issues & sometimes paid with their lives. I put myself through college while working full time & going to school at night. I now what boot straps are & how to pull on them, but I also realize that I have been fortunate & that luck & help from others also has played a part in life.
    I grew up in a neighborhood of families & friends from the same background. I can not relate to Sarah Palin she seems like an empty vessel & quite frankly a poser.
    Yet, the same people that bitch about unions are the same people that have no issues with taking the benefits that were fought for by AMERICAN WORKERS including fair labor laws & safer work environments, to name a few. If you don’t believe in such things maybe you should give them back & make you own “FREE CHOICES”. In other words, live your life by example. This country wastes it’s greatest natural resource. It’s people, by not giving them the tools & opportunities they need to move forward. Without a middle class this country will wither up & die. The middle class needs allies. A union is not the same thing as an insurance agency lobbying for deregulation so that it can make larger profits. Sorry not going to buy that argument. Is this to say unions are perfect, not by any means, but what is?
    This country has a history & you seem to be in denial of that. We see the same effects on the hands off approach of the FDA & the FTC. Tainted food & unregulated imports with toxic chemicals in products. No oversight, no consumer protection. Deregulated. “Small Government.” Letting the market handle everything from the economy to foreign wars. Problem with that philosophy is corporations have one purpose to make money. Nothing wrong with that, but they also should have a responsibility to this country & it’s citizens. They also need to follow the same laws & respect the Constitutional rights of the citizenry of this country. They should not be exempt from these responsibilities because they make money. They are just a part of the big picture. It is a chicken vs egg argument. We need each other & the benefits have to be equitable & fair in order for the economy to work.

    Now explain to me why I should vote against my own self interest for a party that does not believe in labor & sometimes ridicules them? That has no inkling of the contributions made to this economy & the country’s well-being by their convictions & there insistence that they have a seat at the table. That thinks labor should not have a seat at the table & calls them a special interest group?
    We saw the effects of Bush (& Republican) policies in the coal mining disasters that happened in Pennsylvania.
    People have short memories.
    I’m willing to listen & give Senator McCain a chance…tell me why I should vote for him & don’t tell me because the other guy is worse. Try sticking to what Mcain’s vision is & what he has done to articulate that vision in a cohesive, understandable manner. I don’t want to hear the vision of the day.

    To answer your original question…No I don’t like Bush. Not for any ideological point of view I may believe in. I condemn him on his actual record. What listed was only a small sampling of a dismal 8 years. To say that the last 8 years of this Presidency have had no effect on this country towards the negative is at the least, ignorant.
    Explain to me why none of that matters. Explain to me as an American citizen why the constitution of the US just seems to be a piece of paper that this administration & it’s supporters seem to use to wipe their ass with. Explain to me how this total disregard for the law & rules (National & International) benefits this country as a whole.

  • Rolling Ball

    @nelsonart [and anyone else guilty of the same issues]:

    I’m very interested in the points you and others are making on both sides of the argument. I’m disappointed, however, because you are not matching emotional calls with intellectual argument. The standard structure for argumentative discourse goes like this:

    1) You make a statement. Someone else makes an opposing statement.
    2) Both sides offer logical rhetoric and reasoning, supporting their statements.
    3) The rhetoric/logic is scrutinized by both sides.
    4) Both sides return with fact-based evidence, citing reputable sources.
    5) The evidence and rhetoric is debated.
    6) The argument eventually closes with both sides hopefully understanding and respecting each other, not necessarily in agreement.

    Without offering us cited evidence that supports your statements, your point is being lost. It actually gives us the perception that you’re more interested in name-calling than being taken seriously. The effect is actually invalidating the credibility of your side and pushing the entire debate into the gutter Without a healthy debate, no one will learn much.

    I encourage you [everyone] to revamp your strategy, offering evidence to validate logical reasoning. I think we will all benefit, if our arguments are conducted in this fashion.

  • Joe Sa

    “I can name a lot more than 1 thing that Bush has done to our nation’s benefit, but if I have to spell it out, it will deprive some of you of the joys of research.”

    Great answer. So insightful & personally honest. Does the good out weigh the bad is the question? By the way my answer took no on the spot research…it was off the top of my head. Research would have only reinforced my opinion.

  • nelsonart

    Joe Sa,

    I’m not telling anyone who to vote for. Your post is an emotional screed that illustrates the need for economics education in this country.

    It’s impossible to argue against such a lengthy diatribe of nonsense so I’ll only conclude with this:

    It looks like Obama is going to win and we will have a Dem prez + a Dem congress. Obama might write those that pay zero federal taxes a check, and that’s wonderful. But on the whole, taxes are going up. Way up. Coupled with Obama’s grand liberal vision of an entirely new entitlement society. Yes, spending is going way up.

    I don’t know what Obama will get passed. I don’t know how he will temper his bold visions given this climate. No one does. But I know where he leans and that’s scary enough.

    I prefer a Repub president + dem congress or vice versa.

  • Encolpius

    “But on the whole, taxes are going up. Way up. Coupled with Obama’s grand liberal vision of an entirely new entitlement society. Yes, spending is going way up.”

    Prove it, otherwise you’re just parroting right-wing talking points while you desperately try to minimize your losses in three weeks.

  • http://stefancolson.wordpress.com stefancolson

    nelsonart –

    I can see why you support McCain, as you must identify with his debate strategy. Your last response sounds pretty similar to McCain’s vague, un-elaborated “I know what the problem is, and I know how to fix it”. Accusations of ignorance don’t carry much weight when you don’t back them up with facts, and “I can name multiple positive things that Bush has done for this country… but I’m not going to” frankly fails to impress. You even more mind-bogglingly go so far as to criticize the candidate who’s plan is projected to result in the smaller increase in national debt and deficit for assumed reckless increased spending.

    I’m not surprised that you bring up the imagined horrors of a move towards a slightly more socialist future, as that’s typically where staunch conservatives turn when the logic well runs dry. The problem is that all of these horrific socialist countries (or capitalist countries with socialist tendencies) have surpassed us in areas like education, health care, life expectancy, infant mortality, poverty, vacation time, work-week length, average quality of life, reported happiness, broadband penetration and speed, etc. Our freedoms are withering and dying while others continue to expand. We’ve seen this administration (and many before it, both red and blue) privatize more and more of government, and we’ve seen flawed government agencies turn into complacent corporate monopolies. We’ve seen slow and inefficient progress turn into stagnancy and decay. I don’t think that socialism is the answer to our problems, but surely the free market can’t solve everything. Haven’t we learned that extremes are damaging? Isn’t a thoughtful mix of ideologies, a combination of free market and government administered solutions, better than the alternative of corporate, greed-fueled, profit based health care (for example)?

    I’m sure you have a wealth of facts to back up your response to me, but I’m also reasonably sure that you’ll call me a moron and elect not to share them.

  • mango

    “Most people wouldn’t pick Lincoln as a terrible president, but clearly you are not most people”

    My point was not that Lincoln was a terrible president, I believe he was a great president. The point is that history looks at the facts differently than the people living during that time. Both Lincoln and Bush had terrible ratings. Lincoln had half the country at war with him and half of the people not at war with him still didn’t approve of what he did (25% approval rating). The main accomplishment of Lincoln was saving the Union and his Emancipation Proclamation.He became a great president because he stuck to his guns and history showed it paid off. History, will look at Bush’s Presidency in a different light than you or I could. It could very well turn out that Bush could be one the greatest presidents ever. He may have saved our country from an even worse fate. We might never know.

    “I don’t think that socialism is the answer to our problems, but surely the free market can’t solve everything. Haven’t we learned that extremes are damaging?”

    One of the problems with the free market is that we don’t let it work. The housing crisis is one of the biggest examples. When business make mistakes they go out of business and then other companies rise up and take its place. Instead when Sallie and Freddie Mac make mistakes we cut them a 700 billion dollar check. Next thing we know the government is going to cut Microsoft a check for all its business mistakes.

    “The problem is that all of these horrific socialist countries (or capitalist countries with socialist tendencies) have surpassed us in areas like education, health care, life expectancy, infant mortality, poverty, vacation time, work-week length, average quality of life, reported happiness, broadband penetration and speed, etc.”

    ALL of these horrific socialist countries. Care to mention any of these countries? I’m sure China, Russia, the old USSR are not included in this list.

    ” I now what boot straps are & how to pull on them”

    I would not deny that you have pulled yourself up by your boot straps, but I would also argue that McCain has suffered a lot for this country. He might have been born with more money in his pocket, but it takes a quality person to suffer through years of torture as a POW and come out a better person.

    “Tax breaks in the middle of 2 wars is irresponsible…ah a moment of clarity…but that changed to more tax cuts for the wealthiest of Americans because we all know that if you give more to those that have they will take care of everyone else.”

    Yes, but tax revenue has increased since Bush has taken over. Let see less taxes= more spending= more profits= more revenue on lower margins. This how Walmart and the iphone business model work. They have lower profits margins, but they get more traffic, boosting overall profits. The key is knowing how low is too low and how high is too high and making sure costs aren’t higher than profits. The best thing our next president could do would be to cut taxes and cut spending (including the saleries for congress and the senate).

  • LuisDias

    The point is that history looks at the facts differently than the people living during that time. Both Lincoln and Bush had terrible ratings.

    Mango, I take it that people in the future will link the increase of social inequalities, the lowering of rich’s taxes while in war, the waging of a war based on lies, the sheer idiocy of everything he says, if he’s even capable of saying it, the allowance of the build-up of the biggest bubble ever, etc., etc., and they will compare it “favorably” with Lincoln’s leadership.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

  • http://lantinian.blogspot.com lantinian

    Daniel,
    Giving your quality as an excellent researcher, I would strongly recommend that you read this

    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/page/1

  • nelsonart

    mango,

    Great post. I agree with every point.

    I love Bill Maher’s show REAL TIME on HBO. This week was particularly good. You can watch reruns through the week.

    Economist Steve Moore schooled the panel with facts and skewered Obama’s destructive plans accordingly. Bill tends to cling to liberal ideology and since the panel is often comprised of hollywood elites, he’s rarely challenged.

    At least Friday offered some intelligent give and take that may cause some to rethink their stances.

  • Joe Sa

    nelsonart
    as usual you have nothing to say. You dismiss my comments as a diatribe because frankly you have nothing else. Let me simplify it so you can actually answer a question. What is McCain’s plan for the economy & how does it differ from what we have had for the last 8 years?
    Why has the economy not benefitted the middle class?

  • nelsonart

    Joe Sa,

    Google John McCain and you can, yourself, read all about his economic plans. Then you can compare his plans to Bush’s and see if there are any differences. HINT: Look at the spending side for a massive difference.

    I’m sorry you haven’t done well under Bush. Many have. Hopefully massive new spending and new taxes will help you out.

  • Joe Sa

    I’m sorry you haven’t done well under Bush. Many have. Hopefully massive new spending and new taxes will help you out.
    What percentage is many?

  • Joe Sa

    Nelsonart why do we need a different plan if George W’s has worked?
    You seem to see it as a success, a bit delusional don’t you think?

  • nelsonart

    We have no choice. Bush’s term expires in January. New presidents typically have new plans that require minor or major adjustments to every area of govt.

    I would suspect that McCain would keep taxes low (good) while reducing spending. Obama’s stated plan would raise taxes (bad) and increase spending (bad). Obama is shy on offering specifics on where he plans to cut spending. McCain has suggested a spending freeze.

    Remember, no one knows the specifics as no one can tell the future.

    And both candidates have ignored the 800 lb. elephant in the room – entitlements like SS and Medicare.

  • Joe Sa

    You’re right no one does now the specifics but we do know the present & the past. By the way I have been to McCain’s sight & have read his policies…nothing new in most of them. Contrary to what you may believe. They have not worked in the past & the present is proof that they do not work for most Americans.
    Maybe you should read Barrack Obama’s views.
    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
    You seem to be just spouting the usual stereotypical talking points.
    I asked for YOUR insight & you have nothing to offer except sweeping generalities. Another thing, I don’t view the community I live in or the country as just myself. We need to invest in the people of this country to keep it moving forward…I don’t count on the market or private enterprise to do that. There sole purpose is to make money & their major responsibilities lie with their stockholders.

  • http://stefancolson.wordpress.com stefancolson

    That’s right, McCain will keep taxes low… for the wealthiest tax brackets. Under his plan, someone making $40,000 a year and receiving health insurance through his or her employer would see their tax bill go UP, while someone like John and Cindy McCain for example will get as much tax relief as half of the residents of Wasilla, Alaska – COMBINED.

    I sure am glad that FDR didn’t institute a spending freeze during the great depression