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	<title>Comments on: iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone?</title>
	<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/</link>
	<description>Daniel Eran Dilger in San Francisco</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 04:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6582</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6582</guid>
		<description>Does the "interpreted code" limitation also prevent things like modern text adventure interpreters, MAME, emulators, and the like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the &#8220;interpreted code&#8221; limitation also prevent things like modern text adventure interpreters, MAME, emulators, and the like.</p>
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		<title>By: Podcast: Flash and Java on iPhone &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6489</link>
		<dc:creator>Podcast: Flash and Java on iPhone &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6489</guid>
		<description>[...] on the iPhone 2.0 SDK  iPhone 2.0 SDK: The No Multitasking Myth iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signed Certificates Work iPhone 2.0 SDK: Video Games to Rival Nintendo DS, Sony [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] on the iPhone 2.0 SDK  iPhone 2.0 SDK: The No Multitasking Myth iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signed Certificates Work iPhone 2.0 SDK: Video Games to Rival Nintendo DS, Sony [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: jimmoores</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6477</link>
		<dc:creator>jimmoores</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6477</guid>
		<description>@FloydThreepwood:
Most enterprises write custom software to some degree.  While I agree that Java's probable lack of support for Cocoa Touch does limit it's usefulness on the iPhone, the thing to realize about enterprise development is that the user interface is less important than the functionality.  A fine user interface doesn't significantly add value unless it's bad to the extent of taking two or three times longer to perform a task, but I'd argue that is unusual.  However it's easier to retask existing Java J2EE/J2SE developers to knock out a quick sales app for the iPhone (or whatever) than to hire a completely new team who knows Objective-C/Cocoa.  After all Mac's aren't exactly big in business at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I think UI design is very important, and I hate badly designed applications, and I'd prefer everyone to write Cocoa Touch apps (or have a good Java/Cocoa Touch bridge), but I think that my analysis reflects the reality that Java on the iPhone would encourage uptake by business.

Whether compromising the interface for internal applications is a good trade for increased sales for Apple is up for debate though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@FloydThreepwood:<br />
Most enterprises write custom software to some degree.  While I agree that Java&#8217;s probable lack of support for Cocoa Touch does limit it&#8217;s usefulness on the iPhone, the thing to realize about enterprise development is that the user interface is less important than the functionality.  A fine user interface doesn&#8217;t significantly add value unless it&#8217;s bad to the extent of taking two or three times longer to perform a task, but I&#8217;d argue that is unusual.  However it&#8217;s easier to retask existing Java J2EE/J2SE developers to knock out a quick sales app for the iPhone (or whatever) than to hire a completely new team who knows Objective-C/Cocoa.  After all Mac&#8217;s aren&#8217;t exactly big in business at the moment.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I think UI design is very important, and I hate badly designed applications, and I&#8217;d prefer everyone to write Cocoa Touch apps (or have a good Java/Cocoa Touch bridge), but I think that my analysis reflects the reality that Java on the iPhone would encourage uptake by business.</p>
<p>Whether compromising the interface for internal applications is a good trade for increased sales for Apple is up for debate though.</p>
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		<title>By: iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signing Certificates Work &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6457</link>
		<dc:creator>iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signing Certificates Work &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6457</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8592; iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] &larr; iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: FloydThreepwood</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6444</link>
		<dc:creator>FloydThreepwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6444</guid>
		<description>@ jimmoores:

This is the first real pro Java I've read so far.  But the question is, how many Enterprises are out there that use custom Software? Because software companies surely can earn money from custom Cocoa touch programms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jimmoores:</p>
<p>This is the first real pro Java I&#8217;ve read so far.  But the question is, how many Enterprises are out there that use custom Software? Because software companies surely can earn money from custom Cocoa touch programms.</p>
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		<title>By: iPhone 2.0 SDK: Readers Write on Certificate Signing &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6435</link>
		<dc:creator>iPhone 2.0 SDK: Readers Write on Certificate Signing &#8212; RoughlyDrafted Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6435</guid>
		<description>[...] to the articles iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? and iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signing Certificates Work, readers wrote in with additional notes on signed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] to the articles iPhone 2.0 SDK: Java on the iPhone? and iPhone 2.0 SDK: How Signing Certificates Work, readers wrote in with additional notes on signed [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: jimmoores</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6401</link>
		<dc:creator>jimmoores</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6401</guid>
		<description>The historical context of the analysis is interesting.  However, one thing that no one has mentioned is that Sun said they'd port J2ME, not the MIDP profile (which is pretty useless).  If they actually meant the MIDP profile, I couldn't care less whether they actually do it or not: it would be completely meaningless.  There is no reason why an iPhone couldn't run the full JVM (with cut-down libraries), which is essentially what some of the J2ME profiles are.  Unfortunately, most people's experience with Java begins and ends with ugly Swing applications and crappy applets.  Beyond that Java is amazingly powerful and pretty big in enterprise development right now.  I would just LOVE to be able to write 'native' iPhone apps in Java.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The historical context of the analysis is interesting.  However, one thing that no one has mentioned is that Sun said they&#8217;d port J2ME, not the MIDP profile (which is pretty useless).  If they actually meant the MIDP profile, I couldn&#8217;t care less whether they actually do it or not: it would be completely meaningless.  There is no reason why an iPhone couldn&#8217;t run the full JVM (with cut-down libraries), which is essentially what some of the J2ME profiles are.  Unfortunately, most people&#8217;s experience with Java begins and ends with ugly Swing applications and crappy applets.  Beyond that Java is amazingly powerful and pretty big in enterprise development right now.  I would just LOVE to be able to write &#8216;native&#8217; iPhone apps in Java.</p>
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		<title>By: FloydThreepwood</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6375</link>
		<dc:creator>FloydThreepwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6375</guid>
		<description>The article misses the point in a big way! Instead of talking about history and politics it's as simple as you mentioned in your first comment.

Java simply is platform dependent when it comes to UI's. We see how MS Office struggels to put the controlls in the Mac Experience. And remember we are talking about two mouse controlled enviroments. If you think about D-Pad, Stylus and finger controlled systems they simply haven't enough in common to make it work.

Without the Java prmisse it simply is not sexy enough.

BTW: If you read the comments carefully there seems to be enough materiel for a next gen language article?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article misses the point in a big way! Instead of talking about history and politics it&#8217;s as simple as you mentioned in your first comment.</p>
<p>Java simply is platform dependent when it comes to UI&#8217;s. We see how MS Office struggels to put the controlls in the Mac Experience. And remember we are talking about two mouse controlled enviroments. If you think about D-Pad, Stylus and finger controlled systems they simply haven&#8217;t enough in common to make it work.</p>
<p>Without the Java prmisse it simply is not sexy enough.</p>
<p>BTW: If you read the comments carefully there seems to be enough materiel for a next gen language article?</p>
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		<title>By: robd</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6335</link>
		<dc:creator>robd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6335</guid>
		<description>You have not presented sufficient evidence to support your contention that Java is the result of underhand 'partnering and copying' on the part of Sun. That which you do supply--'The Java object model comes straight from Objective-C'--is unsubstantiated and, and in any case of little consequence given that one uses static typing, the other, dynamic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have not presented sufficient evidence to support your contention that Java is the result of underhand &#8216;partnering and copying&#8217; on the part of Sun. That which you do supply&#8211;&#8217;The Java object model comes straight from Objective-C&#8217;&#8211;is unsubstantiated and, and in any case of little consequence given that one uses static typing, the other, dynamic.</p>
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		<title>By: samkass</title>
		<link>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6333</link>
		<dc:creator>samkass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/14/iphone-20-sdk-java-on-the-iphone/#comment-6333</guid>
		<description>First of all, anyone who claims that Java is slow immediately loses credibility with me.  Java code is extremely fast.  Experiments like Jake2 showed that some OpenGL games like Quake2 are faster in Java than C.  The reputation Java gained in the 90's for being slow was then well-deserved, but it's come a long way and if someone calls it slow these days it says more about the competency/currency of the speaker than of Java.

Java is faster than Objective-C because it has runtime information available to its optimizer.  It knows how many times to unroll the loop or which way a branch is likely to go based on actual runtime information.  It compiles down to native code then runs the native code.  It also is not quite as dynamic so can inline more aggressively.  It's a great tradeoff for embedded devices, which is what Java was invented for.

And as for the iPhone in particular, the ARM chip in the iPhone and iTouch CAN RUN JAVA BYTECODE NATIVELY through the Jazelle engine.  Java bytecode to these chips is just as "native" as the ARM ABI, and since Java bytecode is more condensed than the ARM ABI (it's much closer to CISC), it's likely to run faster.  Apple has chosen not to promote this capability, but it's there.  So claiming Java isn't "to the metal" is disingenuous.

As for good UIs, I humbly submit my own company's products:
http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm?item=ed47b98d-97b1-47cd-8ff3-fe2f94b12882
It's true they're not embedded, but isn't that the point of the iPhone?  That we're no longer limited by what typical mobile devices are capable of?  Simply through Swing out the window and the sky's the limit-- you've got a blank canvas to implement any UI you want.

Besides, not only can we not bring our UI directly to the iPhone, we can't even link in our Java libraries behind a "native" UI.  In other words, if we want to create a hand-held version we'll have to go Android.  (Which, as a huge Apple and iTouch fan would bum me out.)

In the end, though, Java is just a language.  gcc can compile it to native code, javac and a modern JDK can run the bytecode fast, and there are tons of libraries and trained developers on it.  It's more secure and more mature with better tools than anything Apple's come up with so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, anyone who claims that Java is slow immediately loses credibility with me.  Java code is extremely fast.  Experiments like Jake2 showed that some OpenGL games like Quake2 are faster in Java than C.  The reputation Java gained in the 90&#8217;s for being slow was then well-deserved, but it&#8217;s come a long way and if someone calls it slow these days it says more about the competency/currency of the speaker than of Java.</p>
<p>Java is faster than Objective-C because it has runtime information available to its optimizer.  It knows how many times to unroll the loop or which way a branch is likely to go based on actual runtime information.  It compiles down to native code then runs the native code.  It also is not quite as dynamic so can inline more aggressively.  It&#8217;s a great tradeoff for embedded devices, which is what Java was invented for.</p>
<p>And as for the iPhone in particular, the ARM chip in the iPhone and iTouch CAN RUN JAVA BYTECODE NATIVELY through the Jazelle engine.  Java bytecode to these chips is just as &#8220;native&#8221; as the ARM ABI, and since Java bytecode is more condensed than the ARM ABI (it&#8217;s much closer to CISC), it&#8217;s likely to run faster.  Apple has chosen not to promote this capability, but it&#8217;s there.  So claiming Java isn&#8217;t &#8220;to the metal&#8221; is disingenuous.</p>
<p>As for good UIs, I humbly submit my own company&#8217;s products:<br />
<a href="http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm?item=ed47b98d-97b1-47cd-8ff3-fe2f94b12882" rel="nofollow">http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm?item=ed47b98d-97b1-47cd-8ff3-fe2f94b12882</a><br />
It&#8217;s true they&#8217;re not embedded, but isn&#8217;t that the point of the iPhone?  That we&#8217;re no longer limited by what typical mobile devices are capable of?  Simply through Swing out the window and the sky&#8217;s the limit&#8211; you&#8217;ve got a blank canvas to implement any UI you want.</p>
<p>Besides, not only can we not bring our UI directly to the iPhone, we can&#8217;t even link in our Java libraries behind a &#8220;native&#8221; UI.  In other words, if we want to create a hand-held version we&#8217;ll have to go Android.  (Which, as a huge Apple and iTouch fan would bum me out.)</p>
<p>In the end, though, Java is just a language.  gcc can compile it to native code, javac and a modern JDK can run the bytecode fast, and there are tons of libraries and trained developers on it.  It&#8217;s more secure and more mature with better tools than anything Apple&#8217;s come up with so far.</p>
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