Daniel Eran Dilger
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What You Expected, What You Got

What You Expected:

Whopper

What You Got…


Ultdblwhop

What you Expected:

Starwars

What you Got:

Jarjar

What you Expected:

Apple

What you Got:

Windows


What you Expected:

Algore

What you Got:

Bush

The next: What You Expected, What You Got.

What do you think? I really like to hear from readers. Comment in the Forum or email me with your ideas.

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  • sebastianlewis

    Haha great image blog, I especially loved those last 2 images.

    Oh and while I’m here commenting anyways, I can’t access the forums at all. roughlydrafted.com/forum takes me to that special page you created, and forum.roughlydrafted.com/forum takes me to the same page (and so does clicking the link).

    Sebastian

  • johnnyapple

    The forums are gone? Just for the moment, I hope. There wuz bunches of good conversation in there.

    I hate to compain but the thick red type in the comment area (here) is awful. Is it a missehavior in my browser?

  • UrbanBard

    Thank you for this revisit to ’60’s anti war propaganda. It is as illogical now as it was then. It was always preaching to the choir.

    It does bring up an interesting question, though. How different would life be if Al Gore had won in 2000? Would Gore have gotten awards from leftist organizations? Sure, they protect each other.

    Would we still be at war with al Qaeda? I think so. Osama bin Laden hated Bill Clinton, or Al Gore, as much as he does President Bush. Most of al Qaeda’s terrorist plans were made during the Clinton administration.

    But, the Democrat’s attitude would be different if a Liberal were in high office. Much of the Left’s anti-war tactics were to prevent victory, because that would expand the power and influence of the Republican Party. Can’t have that, can we?

    Of course, the Democrats have a right to be angry with President Bush. He stole their war with Saddam Hussein. Only democrats are supposed to favor extending democracy to the rest of the world. President Bush campaigned against this in the 2000 election.

    Of course, Al Gore would have never had much opposition from the Mainstream Media, the UN or Europe, no matter how much he mismanaged the war. Tens of thousands of American’s could die and they would still defend him.

    I both reluctantly favor the war as a necessary evil and favor the Left’s attempts to prevent it. I just wish the Left were more logical about it. Complete denial just gets American’s killed.

  • http://www.marketingtactics.com davebarnes

    Daniel,

    The new look is an improvement.

    I love to complain and the thick red type in the comment area (here) is awful.

    ,dave

  • sebastianlewis

    Johnny,

    Yeah, they’re down for now but hopefully not out. It was kind of annoying when I found out because I was going over to the “Ballmer Dellicious” thread to see if there were any new posts before I submitted my own, of course that post is now gone.

    UrbanBard,

    If Al Gore was president it would be something like this:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=AYuqoKxRhMg

    Sebastian

  • TimeServer

    UrbanBard.

    Necessary evil is just being too lazy to do good (all along). If Al Gore had been president, there would still be a Republican Congress; therefore, there would have been some check and balance. That Congress would not have just give Gore a blank check to go to war and subvert the Constitution. By the way, Bin Laden got pissed off by GHW Bush when Bin Laden was denied a place to defend Saudi Arabia during the first Golf War. Before that, the Russians invaded Afghanistan. It goes way back…

    TS.

  • Tilneys

    Sorry, but why does a very good, well informed, subtle and entertaining blog about tech and Apple need to resort to this type of tacky, political character assassination?

    Rise above this level Dan please, or alternatively put it on a separate site, because all you have done is offend between 49 and 51% of your readers…

    Yours respectfully,

    Jonathan

  • http://www.roughlydrafted.com danieleran

    The Forums are available at http://forum.roughlydrafted.com/forum

    However, when I link to that from within WordPress, something intercepts the URL and it is redirected back to “www.rd.com,” which does not work. You may need to manually plug the new URL in and update your bookmarks.

    It will also make you login again (with your same password) because the URL is different. Note that the existing Forum (run by Vanilla) and WordPress (which happens to be on a different server) use independent accounts, so you can’t login to WordPress with the same username and password.

  • lightstab

    I think it needs to be stressed that you can NOT be on the Roughlydrafted site when you type in: http://forum.roughlydrafted.com/forum. I had to go to another web site and type it in before I was able to get it work. Otherwise, WordPress redirects you to a 404 type screen. Have a good day.

  • UrbanBard

    TS, By necessary evil, I mean that we must make choices when we are confronted by enemies. Most likely, we must try something new. Ignoring our problems won’t make them go away. We have tried diplomacy with our Islamic foes and gotten nowhere. Our enemies just thought we were weak. Appeasement just makes our enemies stronger.

    So, after all other measures have been taken, we have proceeded to force– to war. There will always people who will say we haven’t tried long enough or hard enough. And that the onus is on our shoulders because we are the one’s a fault.

    The question is whether those people have the credentials to lend them any credibility. What results can they point to? The Democrats lost us Vietnam by ending military aid in 1973 and losing Vietnam cost two million Vietnamese dead and a similar number in Cambodia. I’ve never known of a Liberal to accept responsibility for what the Conservatives said would happen if we abandoned the Vietnamese– a bloodbath.

    Some enemies cannot be reasoned with, bought off or placated. They want us dead or to be our masters. If it is a choice between Americans dying and them dying, I choose them.

    You may volunteer to have your head cut off, but I do not.

    “By the way, Bin Laden got pissed off by GHW Bush when Bin Laden was denied a place to defend Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War. Before that, the Russians invaded Afghanistan. It goes way back…”

    It didn’t happen that way. Osama bin Laden was Anti American and Anti Saudi government before he went to Afghanistan in the 1980’s. I suggest that you read, “The Looming Tower” by Richard Wright.

    I suspect that the current war is merely a different front of the “Cold War.” Sayed Qtub’s comments are strongly influenced by the communists. The Islamists have strong resentments toward the West. Most often, they repeat the talking points of the Democratic Party, not because they wouldn’t kill the Democrats if they had the power. Their own culture is stagnant and has no ideas to draw from. So they borrow the worst ideas from the West.

  • coffeego

    Tilneys said, “Rise above this level Dan please, or alternatively put it on a separate site, because all you have done is offend between 49 and 51% of your readers…”

    Yes, I’m sure all those people who got a Gateway Profile All-in-One are furious. There may well now be more of them than people who still give a positive approval rating to George W. Bush.

  • dtrapp

    “What you expected” and the comments provide an impressive reminder that we each have developed unique links within our brain to our most powerful observations, experiences and prior thoughts!

    After reading your earlier autobiographical pages still linked to Roughly Drafted, it seems appropriate that your graphics have indeed stirred up strong concerns in some of our minds. It does us all good.

    As a science teacher, I’ve discussed evidence for the greenhouse effect and global warming for several decades. And with a Christian upbringing, I am strongly opposed to thinking of people in other cultures as our enemies. So your images brought a pleasant grin to my face. I regret that the President and his party have seemingly accomplished much of the declared objectives of Bin Laden. Some of them are very touchy about that.

    Keep up the great work.

  • http://glonous.us mac.man25

    Sorry man, I just don’t approve of this type of thing. You may be very politically minded and very intelligent, but this just eeks of childish prejudiced opinions. If you are going to blog about political things, do it the same way you do your Apple-related blogs. That way at least I can see where you are coming from and form a well informed opinion of what you are saying. This however is just telling me, rather forcefully, what you already believe.

    I don’t really care what you believe in, but I do want to know why you believe it. If I were to tell you, “MAC’s SUCK AND PC’s RULE!”. You would say that I was stupid and not listen. You are doing the same thing with this.

    Please. Leave personal politics out of this site.

  • http://www.roughlydrafted.com danieleran

    @Tilneys: Are you referring to the “character assassination” of the Whopper or of Jar-Jar Binks?

    The idea really occurred to me as a tribute to Al Gore, who was just awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I also admire his push to get the US to fund the development of our Internet as a social and economic program.

    That’s in part why the US is the center of net technology today, and why our current acting president could so easily spy on the world’s information traffic–it all runs through out networks. It’s just too bad Bush can’t do anything useful with all that spy data apart from setting up a fear state and torturing a lot of innocent people.

    Think about it: the handling of Katrina, a bungled war, a prison police state, spending US taxes to fund right wing fundamentalist killers like Blackwater… they are all criminal power mongering not too different from any of the other horrific regimes of the previous century such as Stalin’s Russia, or the fascist Axis nations.

    With so much obvious crisis and bloodguilt sprayed around, its no wonder the NeoCons (which really have nothing to do with true US conservatives) are writing so many books of fiction to spin reality around a central lie. NeoCons fool the middle class into thinking that they benefit from fascism, when really nobody who outside of the top 1% (ie, billionaires) benefits from such destruction of the economy, the environment, and social well-being of the country.

    I don’t think giving people something to think about is wrong. I think as citizens, we need to challenge ourselves and think more often, not cower to whatever message is being funneled to us from those who control the status quo.

    Al Gore is as politically centrist as Clinton. Calling either a “leftist” is something only a brainwashed NeoCon repeater would think of doing. That kind of jingoism is what “character assignation” is, something the NeoCons have cornered the market on. Drawing a line between points of truth is not.

    As for UrbanBard, he writes me long missives at regular intervals blaming the world problems on the invented idea of “American leftists” who start all our wars and waste all our money on feeding the poor. It all streams verbatim from the NeoCon bookshelf as is as transparently laughable as the Windows Enthusiasts with their “Apple is the Monopolist” table turning spewage.

    Having said all that, if you don’t occasionally disagree with those you listen to (including me), you may be in danger of being brainwashed. If you choose to only expose yourself to things you already know or agree with, you aren’t being educated or informed. You’re being indoctrinated. That’s never a good thing.

  • zpikzpan

    Very funny blog entry.

  • johnnyapple

    Entering the address ” forum.roughlydrafted.com/forum” manually on a Mac that’s never visited RDM forums still re-directs me to “www.roughlydrafted.com/forum/”.

    I’ll comment on the article later. At first glance, um, ya, Al Gore ain’t no leftist. He’s not exactly Steve Jobs on stage but politically he’s pretty moderate and responsible. I’d “hire” him.

    Right now I’m up to my elbows in 4 quarts of Wild Rice Soup, a Minnesota favorite! Dan, Sebastian, anyone, if you’re in the neighborhood stop by, there’ll be plenty.

  • DiamondDog

    “…if you don’t occasionally disagree with those you listen to (including me), you may be in danger of being brainwashed. If you choose to only expose yourself to things you already know or agree with, you aren’t being educated or informed. You’re being indoctrinated. That’s never a good thing.”

    Thank you for saying this. Daniel.

  • UrbanBard

    I love you too, Daniel, We just disagree on politics. I like your technical articles. I’m not crazy about your propaganda though.

    I used to be a Democrat, but even then I was a “Scoop Jackson” type Democrat– I believe this country was worth defending.

    After 1972 when the New Left took over, there was no room for me in the Democratic Party. Since then, I have come to dislike Socialism. Each year, I think the government is less qualified to do anything besides killing people or threaten to. That means that the courts, the police and the military are acceptable. Redistributing income is not.

    Al Gore is no more a centrist than Bill Clinton was. Clinton was pretending to be a centrist to steal ideas from the right, since the Left has nothing but warmed over socialism. And the voters are rather tired of that.

    Al Gore is a leftist since he believes that the government should redistribute income. Golly, that makes you a leftist, too, Daniel. You believe that the government should take from the rich and give to the poor, I don’t.

    I’m quite happy that you Leftists, have confined yourselves to the big cities. The reason I like you ghettoizing yourself into leftist enclaves is that you have less influence that way. The nation is evenly divided. If you spread yourselves out more you would win more elections. Who wants that?

    I’m no Neocon, Daniel. But we probably have different definitions in mind. A NeoCon is a Former Trotskyite, mostly of Jewish origin, disenchanted with Socialism and had no place to go but to the right. You probably think NeoCon= Conservative. How simplistic of you.

    There are five different interest groups calling themselves Conservatives. I place myself among the “Small Government Conservatives.” That means that I favor substituting voluntary organizations to take the place of governmental activities. I don’t much like the activities of the Big Government Republicans, like President Bush, but he is way better than a leftist. At least, he won’t wreck the economy.

    I apologize that this missive is too long. Wading through Left mire takes time. So much ignorance and bigotry; so little time.

  • UrbanBard

    JohnnyApple, Whether or not you see someone as a Leftist depends on where you stand on the issues. If you constantly read Moveon.org or MediaMatters, then, of course, you see Al Gore as a centrist. But, these people think Provda is to the right of them.

    The question is how you measure these things. If you go by how people voted in the last election, then Al Gore is far Left of center. The 2006 election was a typical sixth year reversal of a two term presidency where the president’s party loses 40 to 60 house seats. The Republicans lost 41 seats and they were mostly to “Blue Dog” Democrats running to the right of Republicans.

    I seriously doubt that the political center of America has changed; it has been slowly been moving toward the right as the older Democrats die off and new ones are either not born or reject it in high school or college. 50 to 60 year old teachers are the establishment to these students; They are NOT cool.

    Any coming election is a crap shoot, but usually the majority party, in this case the Republicans, regains the seats that they lost. It’s not as though the Democrats will have issues that they can win on. A socialist domestic agenda like Hillary is talking about will not sell. The war in Iraq will be off the table since there is just not enough bad news coming out of Iraq these days.

  • gus2000

    Ummm, how do you “pretend” to be a centrist (or left/right for that matter)? You are what your record is. I’m always amused by defeated atheletes who proclaim “we were the better team, they just happened to score more points than we did.” Accepting reality is hard.

    I think Daniel makes the wrong analogy about Bush/Gore and how we did not get what we expected. President Bush has done almost nothing that Candidate Bush promised. What happened to being a “uniter, not a divider”? Why is there no compassion in “Compassionate Conservative”?

    Never argue with a fool; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  • AEChadwick

    “UrbanBard,” please truncate your comments and/or go away. Leftist, rightist, innocent-cutey-pie or belligerent knowitall, I don’t care—nothing you say is your own idea. I come here to read Roughly Drafted, not your re-hash of half-assed neoCon propaganda.

  • Nicky G

    I love it when apologists of the current administration defend our recent history by citing the need to defend ourselves in the face of being attacked by enemies. Forgetting of course the inconvenient fact that until our involvement, there was NO link between Iraq and Al Qaida, and that only in the power vacuum that WE created did they achieve a foothold in Iraq. Simultaneously, we have neglected putting sufficient resources into fighting our enemies in their true homes, those being Afghanistan and our “ally in the war on terror” Pakistan.

  • marsviolet

    Bush may be a moron, but you can’t actually blame him for the war in Iraq. I’m very liberal and left wing, but I can’t help but blame the war on the people who voted to approve it, people like Hillary Clinton who had the power to prevent it by voting “no” and instead voted “yes.”

    At any rate, I like Al Gore a lot more now that he’s not trying to be president. If he hadn’t lost the election he wouldn’t have done all the great things that lead to him winning the (sympathy) votes that lead to his Oscar and his Emmy and his Nobel Prize. He’d be fighting the War on Terror and mired in low approval ratings.

    Anyone willing to do what it takes to be elected president should by no means be allowed to do the job.

  • JeffB.

    What I expected was great tech commentary.

    What I got was more tired political swipes.

    There are plenty of political blogs, I think this blog is a whole lot better if it sticks to the tech.

  • thebob

    As a non-American, I’m always surprised at how far apart the political parties are.

    Have you considered dividing the country? The middle would be one regime and the coasts another.

    I think the electoral system has not kept up with technology. This running around from state to state, with polls and spin wasn’t considered when your system was created. Primaries should all be done on the same day! Get it over with, stop the soap opera.

    Publish manifestos? How about deciding on policy rather than personality?

    Special interest lobbies seem to have more power than the electorate, so it doesn’t matter if your party wins anyway.

    Americans don’t seem to remember that their great country was founded by people searching for Truth Liberty and Justice. Unfortunately their descendants only value popularity, the sound-byte and avoiding the hard questions.

    I hope this doesn’t come over as un-American, but I think the system needs to evolve

  • sebastianlewis

    Johnny,

    When you get to the page “www.roughlydrafted.com/forum” go up to the URL bar and delete “www” and retype “forum” and then if it works just drag the URL down to the bookmarks bar so you don’t have to keep going through that little pain. I was finally able to somehow get onto the Forums this way. A lot of other people must be having trouble because only Oliver, Luis, Tom, lightstab, roz, and dorotea posted anything and most of that was on “Rise of the iTunes Killers Myth”.

    Sebastian

  • UrbanBard

    Gus2000 said:
    “Ummm, how do you “pretend” to be a centrist (or left/right for that matter)? You are what your record is. ”

    If that were only so, Gus. You know that politicians lie, don’t you? All politicians– left and right. They will go before different groups and tell them what they want to hear. But, this is getting much harder than before the internet.

    A politician will tell certain interest groups, or the public through the Mainstream Media that he is a centrist but his record will show that he is not. The Media will try to hide his record, but this is getting harder.

    Bill Clinton pretended to be a centrist. National health care is not a centrist position; Nor is Gays in the Military. Nor is a wide varieties of issues that Bill Clinton favored but could not get through congress. Bill Clinton called this pretending to be a centrist “triangulation.” He didn’t use it during the time he had a Democratic majority in Congress, but after 1994 when he did not.

    Gus2000 said:
    “What happened to being a “uniter, not a divider”?”

    Governor Bush had a good record of working with Democrats in the Texas legislature. But, they were “Good ol’ Boys” close to the voters. President Bush ran into a buzz saw of leftist opposition in Washington. If you want to be a uniter, you have to have someone you can unite with. Big City Leftists want it all their own way. Too bad they can’t get to voters to go along with that.

    Gus2000 said:
    “Why is there no compassion in “Compassionate Conservative”?”

    As a small government Republican, I’m not in favor of Compassionate Conservatism: that looks too much like “triangulation” to me. I’m not in favor of redistributing wealth. I’m against persecuting people because they are rich.

    Every nation that tries that ends up poor and in chains.

    Gus2000 said:
    “Never argue with a fool; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

    I was hoping for a discussion of ideas, myself. Too bad that the Left can’t do that these days.

  • UrbanBard

    AEChadwick said:
    ““UrbanBard,” please truncate your comments and/or go away. Leftist, rightist, innocent-cutey-pie or belligerent knowitall, I don’t care—nothing you say is your own idea. I come here to read Roughly Drafted, not your re-hash of half-assed neoCon propaganda.”

    How long have you been in favor of censorship, AE? This is supposed to be an open forum, so that a diversity of ideas can be presented.

    The Left really opposes “Political Diversity.” I really would wish that Daniel would stick to technology. He, at least, makes some sense there.

  • coffeego

    Shorter UrbanBard: “When you tell me not to write about my idiosyncratic political beliefs on a website because you disagree with them, that’s typical leftist censorship. When I (and others) tell the owner of the website not to write about his political beliefs on his own website because we disagree with them, that’s OK because we are not leftists.”

  • cscgrl04

    Oh, thebob. “Americans don’t seem to remember that their great country was founded by people searching for Truth Liberty and Justice. Unfortunately their descendants only value popularity, the sound-byte and avoiding the hard questions.”? Sure, there are Americans who don’t remember this. But there are PLENTY of Americans who do. You’re right the system does need reformed. But I know a lot of liberals in the middle and conservatives on the coasts who would be really pissed off if we just cut up the country based on stereotypical geographical ideas.
    I think Daniel should say whatever he ants to say. It’s his blog. If you don’t like it, there’s a handy dandy address bar on your browser that will take you somewhere else. Or say something that’s at least mildly thought out.
    I thought it was funny…You’re right Dan, I didn’t expect Jar Jar! AAAAAAAHHHHHH!

  • UrbanBard

    Nicky G said”
    ” Forgetting of course the inconvenient fact that until our involvement, there was NO link between Iraq and Al Qaida, and that only in the power vacuum that WE created did they achieve a foothold in Iraq. ”

    Unfortunately for you, the some 200 thousand documents discovered in fall of Saddam’s regime prove you wrong. But, the Leftist Media will not publish them, so you may not know this. But, that doesn’t excuse your ignorance. Your ignorance is self generated.

    “Simultaneously, we have neglected putting sufficient resources into fighting our enemies in their true homes, those being Afghanistan and our “ally in the war on terror” Pakistan.”

    True. The terrorist’s true home is in Saudi Arabia; that is where the Wahabi/ Salafi clerics are promoting this war on us. Too bad that Geo-political considerations must intervene. We can’t go to war with Saudi Arabia because that would close the straits of Hormuz. The Europeans would freeze to death.

    Blaming the Pakistan government is futile. Much of their territory is not under their control. Often it takes many years to effect change. Years that you will not give to these governments.

    War is often hard. We have to do what works, not what we want to do. That is why the US invaded North Africa in World War Two rather than Continental Europe. The British had been almost been destroyed at Dunkirk.

  • gus2000

    Dear UrbanBard,

    Listen to me carefully, since this is the last time I will ever address you: when I said “do not argue with fools” I was referring to you specifically. Since I was apparently too subtle, I will now state clearly and emphatically “you are a fool”.

    You have no desire to participate in an adult discussion, but rather use inflammatory language to get lots of people mad enough to respond. Somehow, you think this makes you popular. It does not. And since it seems to give you perverse pleasure, I will no longer provide you such validation.

    Personally, I will no longer be feeding this Troll. Those of you that take offense at his diatribes would do well to do the same.

  • UrbanBard

    The Bob said:
    “As a non-American, I’m always surprised at how far apart the political parties are. Have you considered dividing the country? The middle would be one regime and the coasts another.”

    Why should American Conservatives do that? In twenty years the Liberals will have emasculated themselves. They are not reproducing; their birth rates are as low as Europe’s. The Left have no ideas attractive to the voters. Let them die a natural death. Let them go the way of the Whig Party. Then we Small Government Republicans can turn on the Big Government Republicans.

    “I think the electoral system has not kept up with technology. ”

    The last thing we Americans want in government is efficiency. Why has the American Republic withstood the assault of the Socialists when all the European states went Social Democratic or Communist? The US Constitution is very hard to change. That is why the Left tried to make an end run around the Constitution through the courts.

    “Publish manifestos? How about deciding on policy rather than personality?”

    You want to take way the fun and the drama of an election? Phooey.

    “Special interest lobbies seem to have more power than the electorate, so it doesn’t matter if your party wins anyway.”

    There are long term trends at work here. The Reagan Revolution worked, but has not yet resulted in legislation. “Government is not the solution, but is the problem,” is believed by most Americans now.

    But, getting the electorate to give up the “goodies” promised by the left is hard. The political spoils for the special interests are quite entrenched. The Democratic Party would lose a third of their voters if those went away.

    “Americans don’t seem to remember that their great country was founded by people searching for Truth Liberty and Justice. ”

    Sad but true. A big problem is that the public schools don’t teach history any more. Too few people know what ideas that our republic was founded on. The leftist propagandists have done a good job of confusing the issue, too.

    “Unfortunately their descendants only value popularity, the sound-byte and avoiding the hard questions.”

    That is a Mass Media Generated problem that is being overcome by the internet. The Left have degenerated to the point where I can’t get a good argument from them. All they can retort with is propaganda and ad Homenim attacks.

    “I hope this doesn’t come over as un-American, but I think the system needs to evolve”

    No, I think you are one of the few intelligent people to post here.

  • UrbanBard

    Coffeego said:
    “When you tell me not to write about my idiosyncratic political beliefs on a website because you disagree with them, that’s typical leftist censorship.”

    I’m not telling anyone to go away; I’m not censoring anyone. I like a free and open discussion of ideas. I merely disagree with you and you cannot stand that.

    “When I (and others) tell the owner of the website not to write about his political beliefs on his own website because we disagree with them, that’s OK because we are not leftists.””

    I never said to Daniel not to write about this. I merely called it what it was: Leftist propaganda. You have something against free speech?

    I even said that I like Daniel personally and just disagree with his politics. I like his technical writings. He is quite intelligent when talking about the Mac, but he applies no intelligence to his politics. He cannot question them.

    I’ve noticed before that Leftist’s act like a false religion. Their response is emotional rather than reasoned. I would love to get a reasoned argument from Daniel, but he has resisted.

  • UrbanBard

    Gus2000 said
    “Listen to me carefully, since this is the last time I will ever address you: when I said “do not argue with fools” I was referring to you specifically. ”

    Well.. Da.

    Of course, I knew that you were insulting me. But, why should I respond? Why should I value your opinion? Have you said anything that was intelligent? Not so I can see. Have you given a reasoned argument? No.

    The first thing that Leftists do when they realize that they are losing an argument to to start on the personal attacks and insults. I tend to ignore them.

    “You have no desire to participate in an adult discussion, but rather use inflammatory language to get lots of people mad enough to respond. ”

    What inflammatory language have i made? I have not insulted anyone. Words like Leftist and Socialist have meanings that I am using correctly. I am making reasoned arguments. But you don’t want to hear them. Tough.

    “Somehow, you think this makes you popular. ”

    Why would I want popularity when I can have truth?

    ” And since it seems to give you perverse pleasure, I will no longer provide you such validation.”

    I enjoy a discussion of ideas with a knowledgeable person. Too bad that you don’t qualify.

    “Those of you that take offense at his diatribes would do well to do the same.”

    There you go again trying to suppress free speech.

  • limey

    UrbanBard, you really are clueless aren’t you.
    “There you go again trying to suppress free speech”
    No-one’s stopping you from posting…

    We’re just not going to read it.

    john

    ps Johnny, maybe we should have a RDF Minneapolis get together. I believe there are several posters in this area.

  • UrbanBard

    limey said:
    “UrbanBard, you really are clueless aren’t you.
    “There you go again trying to suppress free speech”
    No-one’s stopping you from posting…”

    I just like pointing out the cognitive dissidence of the Left. They love to proclaim themselves as freedom seekers and lovers of the 1st amendment. But, the only freedom they seek is for them to express their views. Any other opinion gets accusations, threats, insults and personal attacks. This is a classic case of suppression of speech.

    There is soft and hard censorship. Hard censorship is when a government throws into jail anyone who disagrees. Soft censorship is to try to drown people out. The typical way is to own all the Media, the press and organs of information transfer such as the Schools.

    The Left had that capability to drown out the Right 20 odd years ago, but not now. The sad result is that the Left have forgotten how to debate. Or events have caught up with them, because the results of their beliefs have been tried elsewhere and failed.

    If you don’t like what I write then give me a good argument why I am wrong. Back it up with good logic and facts that can be verified. Just don’t tell me I am wrong; why should I agree with you? Don’t just tell me to go away. Nothing makes me more stubborn than that.

    “We’re just not going to read it.”

    I love that. Keep it up. Silence yourselves.

  • roz

    Nobel is a leftist organization? Amazing.

    “Would we still be at war with al Qaeda? I think so.”

    Maybe we would have still had them as an adversary, but we would have been in a much better position. If we have stopped after invading Afganistan, put the resources into finding and killing Osama Bin Laden, we would have been a pretty good position to reducing the threat from Al Qaeda significantly. I have heard a couple analyses that Al Qauda was in a pretty bad state before we went into Iraq, but Bush’s war in Iraq gave them new life, a new mission and a rallying cry.

    “Of course, the Democrats have a right to be angry with President Bush. He stole their war with Saddam Hussein. Only democrats are supposed to favor extending democracy to the rest of the world. President Bush campaigned against this in the 2000 election.”

    Yes Bush did campaign against nation building in 2000, it only goes to show how little he knew/knows about foreign policy.

    “Of course, the Democrats have a right to be angry with President Bush. He stole their war with Saddam Hussein. Only democrats are supposed to favor extending democracy to the rest of the world. President Bush campaigned against this in the 2000 election.”
    Democrats are angry with Bush because he started this disaster of a war in Iraq, with no preparation, no thought and no need. He also failed to act upon the advice from Clinton officials to be prepared for a terrorist attack. That might mean if you have intel that says a target might be US airplanes, tell the FAA. Read memo’s by people who warn that they have found out about Islamists learning to fly planes in the US, and they are not interested in learning out how to land. Etc.

    “Of course, Al Gore would have never had much opposition from the Mainstream Media, the UN or Europe, no matter how much he mismanaged the war.”
    First, he would not have invaded Iraq, and whatever he did would have been managed better than Bush has done. Second, why do you say the press is too critical? The press helped beat the drum for the war in a totally unquestioning fashion. Its only years into with the public seeing it as a huge mess has the press become critical. Poor republicans always wear the clothes of a victim: “The media hates us, wah wah!” No they are just trying to get a bit of accountability.

  • roz

    “I just like pointing out the cognitive dissidence of the Left.”

    Funny, I like to do the same with the Right:

    They say Small Government, government spending grows, they create new entitlements, new secret government spying on the public. How again is that small government?

    They say Fiscal Responsibility but they run up huge budget deficits and create all kinds of give-away earmarks. Government is more out of control under them and getting sold to the highest bidder.

    They say Family values when we all know its a lie. Newt Gingrich divorces his wife with cancer. Pedophiles protected. Give me a break.

    They say no nation building and we have spent hundreds of billions in Iraq. We spent a life’s earnings for a typical Iraqi.

    They say Free Markets, but Bush backs protections when it suits him. Steel protections, corn subsidies, drug industry subsidies, oil industry subsidies. No bid contracts in Iraq. The list goes on an on.

    Conservatives are supposed to be careful, they are supposed to protect our founding values, like separation of state and religion, not undermine them. Conservatives like Teddy Roosevelt sought to protect the environment, not destroy it or ignore our affect on it.

    The sad truth is that the conservative movement is intellectually bankrupt because they have shown they can’t govern. They don’t honor their own principles and most of all, they don’t believe in good government. Why would anyone want them in office? Would you go to a restaurant where the people working there hate the idea of eating out?

  • Martin

    UrbanRad, the USA is not at war with EL Qaeda, it’s has invaded Iraq, and abandoning El Qaeda.

    yes, maybe if Al Gore would have been elected by the supreme court the US would still be at war with Al Qaeda, but don’t pretend it is today.

    Iraq never had anything to do with 911, El Qaeda etc…

    and u KNOW that !

  • johnnyapple

    @limey

    “maybe we should have a RDF Minneapolis get together”

    Sure, maybe we could have some reasoned arguments about technology and market share. I’m open for political debate too. You sound like a knowledgeable person I could have a discussion of ideas with.

    ~John

  • gus2000

    LOL@John. Just for that, I’m buying the first round.

  • UrbanBard

    Roz said
    “Nobel is a leftist organization? Amazing.”

    Leftists can infiltrate and control any organization. Hey, even the Ford Foundation gives the bulk of its donations to leftist groups. I consider Nobel a Social Democratic organization. Any organization that gave a Nobel Peace prize to Yasser Arafat is no friend to freedom.

    ““Would we still be at war with al Qaeda? I think so.”
    Maybe we would have still had them as an adversary, but we would have been in a much better position.””

    America has more than just al Qaeda to worry about. After all, al Qaeda is just a financier, strategic planning and training organization for thousands of terrorist organizations world wide.

    We needed to transform the Mid East and the only way to do that was to plant a free economy and a republic in Iraq. That meant the Saddam Hussein had to go. It wasn’t as though he didn’t deserve being overthrown. Bush was merely carrying through with Clinton’s goals in 1998.

    “If we have stopped after invading Afghanistan, put the resources into finding and killing Osama Bin Laden, we would have been a pretty good position to reducing the threat from Al Qaeda significantly. ”

    Since we have killed or captured 80% of al Qaeda that is doing rather good. Finding Osama bin Laden is unimportant except for propaganda purposes. Keeping al Qaeda off balance is what is important.

    These are all Leftist canards. The Left have no strategy for fighting the war on terror. They think that when the Republicans are out of high office then the Muslims will be placated. But, that is when our guard goes down and the real blood bath begins.

    “I have heard a couple analyses that Al Qaeda was in a pretty bad state before we went into Iraq, but Bush’s war in Iraq gave them new life, a new mission and a rallying cry.”

    That is life. It’s a fact of war that people choose sides, but they do that anyway. If we do nothing– they kill us. If we do anything to hurt them, their numbers grow and they kill us. There is a limit to even the numbers of suicidal Muslims. The point is that the war is not over. We do not know who will win. But, your plan is for us to lose.

    ““Of course, the Democrats have a right to be angry with President Bush. He stole their war with Saddam Hussein. Only democrats are supposed to favor extending democracy to the rest of the world. President Bush campaigned against this in the 2000 election.”

    Yes Bush did campaign against nation building in 2000, it only goes to show how little he knew/knows about foreign policy.”

    It was a different world. Clinton had soft peddled the Islamist threat. Bush had to wake up and smell the roses on 9/11. When will you?

    “Democrats are angry with Bush because he started this disaster of a war in Iraq, with no preparation, no thought and no need.”

    We disagree. There was a year and more of preparation before the invasion. Saddam was given chance after chance. We disagree on the need.

    “He also failed to act upon the advice from Clinton officials to be prepared for a terrorist attack. ”

    Clinton had no plan. He passed on no messages.

    “That might mean if you have intel that says a target might be US airplanes, tell the FAA. Read memo’s by people who warn that they have found out about Islamists learning to fly planes in the US, and they are not interested in learning out how to land. Etc.”

    The Clinton administration had erected “the Wall” keeping the FBI and the CIA from talking to each other. Might-have-beens are just conjecture. The Clinton administration had plenty of chances to hit al Qaeda and chose not to.

    ““Of course, Al Gore would have never had much opposition from the Mainstream Media, the UN or Europe, no matter how much he mismanaged the war.”
    First, he would not have invaded Iraq, and whatever he did would have been managed better than Bush has done. “”

    True, he would have not invaded Iraq. Whether that would have helped America neither of us know. I suspect not. Al Gore is not a decisive person; he would dither.

    “Second, why do you say the press is too critical? The press helped beat the drum for the war in a totally unquestioning fashion. ”

    What have you been smoking? I was talking about the Mainstream Media. The Washington Post, the NY Times, The LA times, The Boston Globe, ABC, NBC. CBS are all anti war. Who are you talking about?

    “Its only years into with the public seeing it as a huge mess has the press become critical. ”

    Afraid not. You don’t know your history.

    “Poor republicans always wear the clothes of a victim: “The media hates us, wah wah!” No they are just trying to get a bit of accountability.”

    So, that is why the NY Times act as a traitor by revealing the Swift Program? The only conclusion is that they want the Bush administration to lose. Unfortunately, America loses too.

  • Martin

    Arafat was fighting for the freedom of his people.

  • Martin

    “War on Terror”, i’m really worried every time i read that.

    u can’t fight terrorists with violence, there is no war on terror, that’s a public relation invention of the Bush administration, no other country is stupid enough to call it like that.

    u can fight terrorism, but it’s not a war.

  • UrbanBard

    Roz continues”
    “I just like pointing out the cognitive dissidence of the Left.”
    Funny, I like to do the same with the Right:

    They say Small Government, government spending grows, they create new entitlements, new secret government spying on the public. How again is that small government?”

    It isn’t. The voters aren’t ready for that yet. They don’t want to give up their special interests.

    Evidently, You cannot read, either. I said that President Bush is a BIG Government Republican. I am a Small Government Conservative. I don’t agree with his position on many things. Why do you imply that I do?

    “They say Fiscal Responsibility but they run up huge budget deficits and create all kinds of give-away earmarks. ”

    You are an ignoramus. The national debt is dropping rapidly. It will be gone in several years.

    The congressional spending, of course, is relative in comparison to the Democrats. Since the Democrats hold both houses this is THEIR budget deficit.

    Hillary says that she has millions of ideas on how to help people. Everyone of those ideas will cost money. She would break the treasury if she were elected. Even so, I agree that we should throw everyone out of office who abuses earmarks.

    “Government is more out of control under them and getting sold to the highest bidder.”

    The Democrats are no pikers here. Do I have to remind you of Rep Jefferson and his 90 thousand dollars of cold cash in the freezer?

    “They say Family values when we all know its a lie. Newt Gingrich divorces his wife with cancer. Pedophiles protected. Give me a break.”

    What are you– a gossip columnist? A preachers? None of our politicians are free of taint. The Media protects the pedophiles on the Left. They don’t spare the one’s on the right.

    “They say no nation building and we have spent hundreds of billions in Iraq. ”

    Grow up. You are repeating yourself. Times change and politicians must respond.

    “They say Free Markets, but Bush backs protections when it suits him. Steel protections, corn subsidies, drug industry subsidies, oil industry subsidies. No bid contracts in Iraq. The list goes on an on.”

    I have to agree with you, but so what? Are Democrats squeaky clean? Of course not. You are merely being partisan.

    “Conservatives are supposed to be careful, they are supposed to protect our founding values, like separation of state and religion, not undermine them.”

    What in the world does that mean? Oh! There is no separation of Church and state enshrined in the constitution or in the federalist papers. The supposed “wall” between the church and state that Thomas Jefferson wrote about in a private letter has to do with the Establishment of a church in America. There is no Tax Paid, established church in America.

    What the Left are doing is something that would have horrified the founders– the removal of religious practice from the public arena. You can only do that by denying people’s freedom of religion.

    “Conservatives like Teddy Roosevelt sought to protect the environment, not destroy it or ignore our affect on it.”

    Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican, but was a progressive, a reformer, a socialist, and no Conservative.

    “The sad truth is that the conservative movement is intellectually bankrupt because they have shown they can’t govern. ”

    Given that you have shown no signs of even knowing was Conservative values are, I must disagree.

    “They don’t honor their own principles and most of all, they don’t believe in good government. ”

    Define was “good Government” is, please. I believe that the best government is the smallest and the closest to the voters. What do you believe in?

    “Why would anyone want them in office?”

    The fact is that the electorate does. Why? Because the Democratic party wants to regulate and tax us to death. There is no freedom in that.

  • UrbanBard

    Martin said
    “Arafat was fighting for the freedom of his people.”

    Ah. That explains why he stole a billion dollars of aid money and placed it in a swiss bank account.

    ““War on Terror”, i’m really worried every time i read that.

    u can’t fight terrorists with violence, there is no war on terror, that’s a public relation invention of the Bush administration, no other country is stupid enough to call it like that.

    u can fight terrorism, but it’s not a war.”

    Apparently, you as competent with Global Strategy as you are with spelling.

  • UrbanBard

    Martin also said:
    “UrbanRad, the USA is not at war with EL Qaeda, it’s has invaded Iraq, and abandoning El Qaeda.

    yes, maybe if Al Gore would have been elected by the supreme court the US would still be at war with Al Qaeda, but don’t pretend it is today.”

    Of course, You are a God so you know everything. LOL

    “Iraq never had anything to do with 911, El Qaeda etc…”

    No one in the Bush administration ever said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. But, the 200 thousand documents captured after Saddam’s regime fell say that Saddam’s government and al Qaeda did cooperate. Many leading al Qaeda leaders and terrorists would vacation or recuperate in Iraq.

    “and u KNOW that !”

    No, you have your facts wrong. You can’t believe everything that you read in the Mainstream Media.

  • Martin

    You are insulting me, not convincing me.

  • johnnyapple

    Hey Martin,

    Ignore the flame. It’s not warm or inspiring or intelligent. Don’t go into the lite.

    ~johnny